Chisel Grind...Why?

[1234]

Give this a watch and it'll sort things out.

[video=youtube;SuAEGXvKeD0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuAEGXvKeD0[/video]

The most significant reason for a chisel grind is when you want the centered axis of the edge canted relative to the handle and/or for doing flush paring cuts. Your possible angle of approach is skewed depending on which side you cut from.

When he says V-grind, he means Scandi-grind, yes?

1234,,,,

 

[EChoil]

There's a bit of crap and misguided speculation in this thread....

I'm not going to consider the opinion of anyone suffering OCD, or any other mental illness, as fact. If you want a perfect V-edge on your knife and start to palpate and sweat if it's slightly off, power to you. Sharpen it to still your rapid heart, go about using it and read no further. Best of luck to ya.

As far as being a "sexier" edge......c'mon. Hard for me to relate "sexy" to a blade edge. Maybe to a blade, but not an edge...which does the actual cutting.

If you guys think you don't own any chisel ground blades, look no further than your manual razors. The blades are chisel ground. They are the sharpest blades you own. Less expensive to manufacture you say? Have you checked the price of blades lately? Overpriced as Sebenzas. If V-ground were better for cutting they'd be on the market--it's not overly expensive to grind one more side if you're familiar with razor blade manufacturing machinery. There's a reason for chisel grind instead of V--they technically cut better, potentially sharpen better and hold an edge equally well in most instances.

In the razor blade industry, sharpness and longevity being the grail, if V-grind were stronger, sharper OR produced a more long-lasting edge, they would be produced and on the shelf. The razor industry will also tell you that the average man's beard is like shaving the equivalent of equal diameter COPPER WIRE. It's the base criteria they use for testing blades. Check it out. If the experts in sharpness choose chisel for such a task it's going to be fine with me.

As for BLADE strength: obviously given two equal blade blanks, one ground on only one side, the other ground away on two sides, the one ground the least is going to have greater strength; be a "stronger" blade (and resulting tip), having had less steel removed. This has been my experience over time in using both.

As to EDGE, I see no reason a chisel ground edge would be any weaker than a V-ground edge. IMO, the opposite is true if anything. And if an edge does chip or roll, it's going to be recoverable a hell of a lot faster and easier on a chisel grind. Easier for field touch-ups too. Simpler.​

If you can't cut a straight line with a good chisel ground blade, or at least train yourself to in under 15 minutes, you need to go back to kiddie scissors. Personally I can cut equally well with V or chisel grind. But I can make more ACCURATE cuts with chisel. Cuts "cleaner" too with most materials, as they can be incredibly sharp just due to the nature of same, not having to sacrifice sharpness in favor of looking pretty or painstakingly achieving an equal angle on the other side for the visual proclivities of some.

I've said in here often, as I'll say again, I've never understood those who state that a chisel edge is not good for EDC. I have many V-ground as well as chisel blades. I've never ONCE wished I had a V-ground blade instead of chisel while attempting any EDC task. If anything I find that chisel grind cuts a bit better, all things considered, both being sharpened to the max. In fact, now that I think about it, there have been times I wished I had a chisel ground blade with me INSTEAD of a V-ground when I need extreme sharpness, as when splitting leather boot lace or having to shave the sueded side of leather smooth in a tight area (where a chisel-ground Leatherman blade really shines).

I don't obsess over chisel vs. V any more than I would obsess over steel or handle material. I buy a knife if I like it regardless of grind. However....to in any way lessen a chisel grind compared to another grind for use has never even crossed my mind. Chisel grind makes good, strong, sharp blades. In many cases cutting better than typical V-grinds.

I believe that for the most part, those who demean chisel grind, much like those who demean tanto blades for EDC, don't have a lot of experience with that type of edge and are just freaked because it's "different." If they were less than satisfactory, in the decades I have used knives in every environment, I'd have experienced it. The blade doesn't go off the road, in circles, or disjoint my wrist when I cut with it either. Poor babies out there who can't follow a straight line with an edge....sheesh.

One exception may be in the kitchen. I'm not a carrot-slicer so I wouldn't know. But then I see where many times a chisel grind is preferred on some of the better/prestige kitchen knives...maybe moreso even than in our little world of folders. Go figure....

 

[stabman]

I've said in here often, as I'll say again, I've never understood those who state that a chisel edge is not good for EDC. I have many V-ground as well as chisel blades. I've never ONCE wished I had a V-ground blade instead of chisel while attempting any EDC task.

When carving sticks in the woods for skewers, walking sticks, shelter poles and such, I have found V-grind nicer.
The chisel grind likes to bite in more as it goes, due to the way it wedges in there; more pressure pushing into the cut. Think of airplane wings and air-flow (but with wood rather than air, naturally).

Now sure, the chisel ground knife still cut wood, but not in the same way; there is a difference in how it cuts certain materials, which is why kitchen knives sometimes use it.
It's not stronger.
It's not sharper.
But for certain applications it will work better...and for certain others, it won't.

That's part of the reason they make more than one type of knife.

 

[EChoil]

When carving sticks in the woods for skewers, walking sticks, shelter poles and such, I have found V-grind nicer.
The chisel grind likes to bite in more as it goes, due to the way it wedges in there; more pressure pushing into the cut. Think of airplane wings and air-flow (but with wood rather than air, naturally).

Now sure, the chisel ground knife still cut wood, but not in the same way; there is a difference in how it cuts certain materials, which is why kitchen knives sometimes use it.
It's not stronger.
It's not sharper.
But for certain applications it will work better...and for certain others, it won't.

That's part of the reason they make more than one type of knife.

I think you'll find that most woodcarvers, at least those I have actually spoken to, prefer chisel grind for most work. That being said, however....

I will say that for making fine and detailed feather sticks, which I rarely do, a V-grind can make the job a bit easier than doing it with an Emerson, as I'm right handed. However, if the grind were on the opposite side it would be easier for a right hander--IMO easier than a V-grind due to the easier visual sighting of the carve..

That's the only instance I know of though where a V-grind would be preferred BY ME, but only due to the way Emerson grinds chisel....and I had to wrack my brain to come up with that one.

And when you say, "it's not stronger," I may agree if you mean the EDGE. But not the BLADE, as I explained above.

 

[shqxk]

There's a bit of crap and misguided speculation in this thread....

I'm not going to consider the opinion of anyone suffering OCD, or any other mental illness, as fact. If you want a perfect V-edge on your knife and start to palpate and sweat if it's slightly off, power to you. Sharpen it to still your rapid heart, go about using it and read no further. Best of luck to ya.

As far as being a "sexier" edge......c'mon. Hard for me to relate "sexy" to a blade edge. Maybe to a blade, but not an edge...which does the actual cutting.

If you guys think you don't own any chisel ground blades, look no further than your manual razors. The blades are chisel ground. They are the sharpest blades you own. Less expensive to manufacture you say? Have you checked the price of blades lately? Overpriced as Sebenzas. If V-ground were better for cutting they'd be on the market--it's not overly expensive to grind one more side if you're familiar with razor blade manufacturing machinery. There's a reason for chisel grind instead of V--they technically cut better, potentially sharpen better and hold an edge equally well in most instances.

In the razor blade industry, sharpness and longevity being the grail, if V-grind were stronger, sharper OR produced a more long-lasting edge, they would be produced and on the shelf. The razor industry will also tell you that the average man's beard is like shaving the equivalent of equal diameter COPPER WIRE. It's the base criteria they use for testing blades. Check it out. If the experts in sharpness choose chisel for such a task it's going to be fine with me.

As for BLADE strength: obviously given two equal blade blanks, one ground on only one side, the other ground away on two sides, the one ground the least is going to have greater strength; be a "stronger" blade (and resulting tip), having had less steel removed. This has been my experience over time in using both.

As to EDGE, I see no reason a chisel ground edge would be any weaker than a V-ground edge. IMO, the opposite is true if anything. And if an edge does chip or roll, it's going to be recoverable a hell of a lot faster and easier on a chisel grind. Easier for field touch-ups too. Simpler.​

If you can't cut a straight line with a good chisel ground blade, or at least train yourself to in under 15 minutes, you need to go back to kiddie scissors. Personally I can cut equally well with V or chisel grind. But I can make more ACCURATE cuts with chisel. Cuts "cleaner" too with most materials, as they can be incredibly sharp just due to the nature of same, not having to sacrifice sharpness in favor of looking pretty or painstakingly achieving an equal angle on the other side for the visual proclivities of some.

I've said in here often, as I'll say again, I've never understood those who state that a chisel edge is not good for EDC. I have many V-ground as well as chisel blades. I've never ONCE wished I had a V-ground blade instead of chisel while attempting any EDC task. If anything I find that chisel grind cuts a bit better, all things considered, both being sharpened to the max. In fact, now that I think about it, there have been times I wished I had a chisel ground blade with me INSTEAD of a V-ground when I need extreme sharpness, as when splitting leather boot lace or having to shave the sueded side of leather smooth in a tight area (where a chisel-ground Leatherman blade really shines).

I don't obsess over chisel vs. V any more than I would obsess over steel or handle material. I buy a knife if I like it regardless of grind. However....to in any way lessen a chisel grind compared to another grind for use has never even crossed my mind. Chisel grind makes good, strong, sharp blades. In many cases cutting better than typical V-grinds.

I believe that for the most part, those who demean chisel grind, much like those who demean tanto blades for EDC, don't have a lot of experience with that type of edge and are just freaked because it's "different." If they were less than satisfactory, in the decades I have used knives in every environment, I'd have experienced it. The blade doesn't go off the road, in circles, or disjoint my wrist when I cut with it either. Poor babies out there who can't follow a straight line with an edge....sheesh.

One exception may be in the kitchen. I'm not a carrot-slicer so I wouldn't know. But then I see where many times a chisel grind is preferred on some of the better/prestige kitchen knives...maybe moreso even than in our little world of folders. Go figure....

Chisel grind and chisel edge are two difference thing. All straight razors are hollow ground with chisel edge.

The reason why production razor use chisel grind because the flat side will create less drag on shear type of cutting and its also cost less to produce.

Same reason for Scissors, Wood chisel, Wire stripper etc.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

There's a bit of crap and misguided speculation in this thread....

I'm not going to consider the opinion of anyone suffering OCD, or any other mental illness, as fact. If you want a perfect V-edge on your knife and start to palpate and sweat if it's slightly off, power to you. Sharpen it to still your rapid heart, go about using it and read no further. Best of luck to ya.

As far as being a "sexier" edge......c'mon. Hard for me to relate "sexy" to a blade edge. Maybe to a blade, but not an edge...which does the actual cutting.

If you guys think you don't own any chisel ground blades, look no further than your manual razors. The blades are chisel ground. They are the sharpest blades you own. Less expensive to manufacture you say? Have you checked the price of blades lately? Overpriced as Sebenzas. If V-ground were better for cutting they'd be on the market--it's not overly expensive to grind one more side if you're familiar with razor blade manufacturing machinery. There's a reason for chisel grind instead of V--they technically cut better, potentially sharpen better and hold an edge equally well in most instances.

In the razor blade industry, sharpness and longevity being the grail, if V-grind were stronger, sharper OR produced a more long-lasting edge, they would be produced and on the shelf. The razor industry will also tell you that the average man's beard is like shaving the equivalent of equal diameter COPPER WIRE. It's the base criteria they use for testing blades. Check it out. If the experts in sharpness choose chisel for such a task it's going to be fine with me.

As for BLADE strength: obviously given two equal blade blanks, one ground on only one side, the other ground away on two sides, the one ground the least is going to have greater strength; be a "stronger" blade (and resulting tip), having had less steel removed. This has been my experience over time in using both.

As to EDGE, I see no reason a chisel ground edge would be any weaker than a V-ground edge. IMO, the opposite is true if anything. And if an edge does chip or roll, it's going to be recoverable a hell of a lot faster and easier on a chisel grind. Easier for field touch-ups too. Simpler.​

If you can't cut a straight line with a good chisel ground blade, or at least train yourself to in under 15 minutes, you need to go back to kiddie scissors. Personally I can cut equally well with V or chisel grind. But I can make more ACCURATE cuts with chisel. Cuts "cleaner" too with most materials, as they can be incredibly sharp just due to the nature of same, not having to sacrifice sharpness in favor of looking pretty or painstakingly achieving an equal angle on the other side for the visual proclivities of some.

I've said in here often, as I'll say again, I've never understood those who state that a chisel edge is not good for EDC. I have many V-ground as well as chisel blades. I've never ONCE wished I had a V-ground blade instead of chisel while attempting any EDC task. If anything I find that chisel grind cuts a bit better, all things considered, both being sharpened to the max. In fact, now that I think about it, there have been times I wished I had a chisel ground blade with me INSTEAD of a V-ground when I need extreme sharpness, as when splitting leather boot lace or having to shave the sueded side of leather smooth in a tight area (where a chisel-ground Leatherman blade really shines).

I don't obsess over chisel vs. V any more than I would obsess over steel or handle material. I buy a knife if I like it regardless of grind. However....to in any way lessen a chisel grind compared to another grind for use has never even crossed my mind. Chisel grind makes good, strong, sharp blades. In many cases cutting better than typical V-grinds.

I believe that for the most part, those who demean chisel grind, much like those who demean tanto blades for EDC, don't have a lot of experience with that type of edge and are just freaked because it's "different." If they were less than satisfactory, in the decades I have used knives in every environment, I'd have experienced it. The blade doesn't go off the road, in circles, or disjoint my wrist when I cut with it either. Poor babies out there who can't follow a straight line with an edge....sheesh.

One exception may be in the kitchen. I'm not a carrot-slicer so I wouldn't know. But then I see where many times a chisel grind is preferred on some of the better/prestige kitchen knives...maybe moreso even than in our little world of folders. Go figure....

There are a number of fundamental errors in some of your assertions, most of them pertaining to the specific context of the work being performed. You might want to watch the video that 1234 was kind enough to quote to this page if you haven't already and think about in what circumstances one configuration would be preferable to the other. There are a number of good reasons why both blade styles exist and are traditionally found most frequently in different settings. One is not globally superior to the other, so much as they are simply adapted to different contextual applications.

 

[mrnotsam123]

On a serious note though, I think the best summation here is that both grinds can be done extremely well and at this point it's stupid to say that one is less useful than the other. They both have their uses and both will appeal to certain people's uses or personal preferences. As far as most arguments made both blades can be used for most tasks mentioned. Only thing I haven't seen mentioned extensively is that chisel will leave a much nastier scar/wound due to it's geometry in separating flesh. Obviously both grinds cause damage but typically v-grinds heal better and chisel scar more and take longer.

-Nick

 

[Charlie Mike]

Warren Thomas

 

[marthinus]

........If you guys think you don't own any chisel ground blades, look no further than your manual razors. The blades are chisel ground.They are the sharpest blades you own.....

Your post is interesting, but they are not the sharpest I own. The sharpest I own are scalpels, and they are V-Edge. Here is the specific brand's patent that I have with Figure 2 being the cross-sectional view.

 

[mrnotsam123]

Warren Thomas

-------^ +1

 

[bodydamage]

A blade with the "straight" or flat side on the right side, like an Emerson, is easier to cut with in a straight line while being held in the left hand. At least it is for me, and luckily I am left-handed. And I own six Emersons.

I wanted to love my Emersons but they always felt like they had left handed blades in them. Super hard to explain until you experience it. I truly noticed it when cutting cardboard or carpet (yeah, I know there are better options for cutting both). A chisel grind blade cuts and acts different than a V grind. Ill take a V.

 

[Charlie Mike]

Steve Ryan

 

[d762nato]

I found the article I was referring to here below. This is the first part of it and was the reason I was asking the why part.

The Western Worid squares off the tip
of the Inherently curved Japanese tanto

By Joe Kertzmon



^_ ^— modern and ancient meet in



should a
tanto have a chisel-like point* one that juts up
from edge to tip by means of a 45-degree
angle, or should it gently curve its way there?

Many American tantos tend to have
abrupt, chiseM ike points, with one side of the
blade seemingly flat As the late Bob Engnath
noted in the August 1999 issue of BLADE
Magazine*, "What most contemporary
American-made tantos have is little more
than the remnant of the tip one would see on
a severely shortened or broken sword"

Classic Japanese tanto blades rarely, if
ever, took on the abrupt angles characteristic
of their updated American brethren, Engnath
said, and most edges were ground from both
sides of the blade, creating two bevels
coming together like a "V."

"I think chisel points are interesting in
that they look ominous on certain types of
knives," says David Goldberg, a knifemakef
who practices traditional methods of making
Japanese-style pieces. There's a place for
them, but they're not traditional tantos.' 1

The edge of a traditional Japanese tanto,
Goldberg notes, is curved, "There are many
different styles of Japanese swords and
tantos. There is the shmogi zukuri — a blade
with a symmetrical grind line down the
middle of the length — or the yokote ken with
a demarcation line between the body of the
blade and the tip."

In general, whether on a long or short
Japanese sword or tanto, "from the time the
edge begins to curve, it continues to curve to
the tip," he explains. "If you look at a short
wakfeashii or ko wtkizashi, it appears to have
a chisel point, but it doesn't. It's curved in

APRIL 2002



every aspect. It's an optical illusion.

"1 use a flat grind That's traditional for a
tanto " Goldberg adds, "A tanto did not have
a skinogt [ridge Une] t so the whole surface of
the knife blade, in essence, tapered toward
and created the edge.

The Japanese sword tip. is based on a
circle, regardless of the size of the tip," he
says. "If you followed the line of a traditional
tanto blade tip and continued it, eventually a
circle would be formed. A chisel tip would
form a straight line."

Goldberg makes Japanese-type knives,
but he is not a Japanese swordsmim. He's an
American swordsmith making a style of
knife* There is a difference. "lama purist,"
he begins, "I make Japanese-style knives as
close to the originals as possible. But, in
Japan, you must follow strict guidelines. You
are required to study under a master smith.
There are rules, and you can't make knives
without following them."

Non-Traditional Tantos
Interestingly enough, two of the major play-
ers credited for the rebirth of tantos in the
United States— Bob Lum on the handmade
side of the industry, and Cold Steel on the
factory side — do not make traditional Japan-
ese-style tantos.

"I think I was the first one to really bring
the tanto, at least the way I do it, to the
American market in the late '70s," Lum
asserts, "I wanted to do ray own thing. 1
visited the shop of a friend who had Japanese
knives and an annor-piendng dagger.

"It gave me the idea to combine elements
of things I like and thought might work
together to make a knife. I like the idea of a
sword tip," Lum says. "A traditional tanto
has a tsuba [guard], and the name tanto is a
generic term for a Japanese fighting knife, in



my opinion.

Engnath probably would have agreed. He
said tanto, translated literally, means a knife
with a guard, and added that most modern
tantos have bolsters instead of guards. As far
as piercing armor, Engnath declared the most
common type of tanto for penetrating armor
to be a yori toshU a rather short, V-ground
tanto made with an extraordinarily heavy
blade so that it could be driven into hard
metal almost like a nail.

In general, the blades of tantos remain
thick toward the tip. The taper toward the
cutting edge of a typical antique Japanese
combat blade, Engnath explained, had a hint
of a convex curve, creating what is now
called a Moron edge* The taper was accom-
plished by forging, filing and block-stone
polishing, none of which could he done on a
blade with a hollow-ground cross section.

"Mine are ground on both sides, like
swords," Lum says, "with slightly convex
edges at me tips. There are different angles
there. The ones I normally make have
hollow-ground blades reaching two-thirds of
the way up where they gp fullered and flat, or
convex ground. That results in curves at the
front where the angles meet*'

"That varies greatly from Japanese
blades," he admits. Traditional-style tantos
are flat ground and subtle. Some guys make
them traditionally.

 

[Lycosa]

Thank you all for the information. This is a fantastic thread.
My conclusion. Both the chisel grind and the V grind, when used accordingly, will excel at what they were designed to do.
rolf

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Your post is interesting, but they are not the sharpest I own. The sharpest I own are scalpels, and they are V-Edge. Here is the specific brand's patent that I have with Figure 2 being the cross-sectional view.

That's kind of funny--the crimping done to the spine to stiffen it greatly resembles one of the configurations of the rib and bead of a scythe blade.

 

[BubbaGump]

Keep in mind that when comparing grind properties such as strength and sharpness, the discussion only make sense in a relative context. The statement that a chisel grind is stronger than a flat or hollow grind only makes sense when all other properties are equal. e.g. The same blade blank is used to create two samples. One sample is traditional FFG with each primary bevel having a secondary bevel of 15 degrees per side. A chisel grind is created on the other sample. Only one side is ground to a FFG primary bevel with a secondary bevel of 15 degrees. Which one will have the stronger tip and edge?

 

[Lycosa]

And here's a good question.^

 

[Skimo]

No thought required, a 30 degree inclusive edge will have a thicker cross section than a 15 degree edge.

 

[BubbaGump]

No thought required, a 30 degree inclusive edge will have a thicker cross section than a 15 degree edge.

The 30 degrees is on the secondary bevel. The primary bevel remains unground on one side of the Chisel example and the cross-section is thicker the entire length of the blade from spine to edge at each corresponding point along the blade. Again, assuming the blade blanks are equal on both prior to applying the grinds.

 

[Skimo]

You asked which had a stronger edge... and now it's which retains more mass when only ground with one primary bevel. Sure, chisel grinds are the cats meow.