Chris Reeve- Financial Wizard

Jedi,

Surely you realize that some compromises must be made from the "ultimate" knife to get it to a cost that most people can afford. At some point you get to dimishing returns. When you look at a CRK&T knife that is similar in design to a Benchmade or Spyderco, do you not see the difference in manufacturing quality and the materials involved? Have those companies and their owners somehow duped the general public into overpaying for a production knife that could have been made to lesser quality standard at a reduced price overseas somewhere? There is a huge population of happy Benchmade and Spyderco owners out there that surely must feel they are getting a fair value because they keep coming back to those same brands.

This same line of thought holds true for the Sebenza. Benchmade did not remake the Sebenza at a lower price. That knife is not a Sebenza. It shares some characteristics with the Sebenza but, at a lower cost and lower standard of manufacture. Plus, I have yet to find a knife, production or otherwise, that gives me that feeling I get with the bank vault doors effect upon opening a Sebenza. Yes, there are other good knives out there that give me a similar feeling but, they are more expensive (and generally lack to the great utility of the Sebenza).

The other part of CRK success story is the "One Piece" line. I have seen a lot of hollow handled knives but, only one is available made to perform as the CRK does. This knife has no equal at its price that I am aware of in a knife of the same format and design goals. I have yet to see a $100 hollow handle knife that would come close to performing as the CRK One Piece does.

What else can I say? Whether it is a bargain or a ripoff, you vote with your wallet and I'll vote with mine.

Sid

p.s. I am back order'ed on Sebenza's and have been for a long time. For a knife that some say is over priced, they sure are hard to keep on the shelf.
 
Jedi - Most of the differences are in "time". Machining time is slow. Machining Titanium is especially slow. Shop time in a small factory will generally run about $45-$60 per hour. When an employee goes to the bathroom, it can cost the company $3. Machining a thumb stud is slower than casting it.

BG-42 is a very good steel. Like most very good steels, it takes longer to "form" them into a blade (because they don't like to give up molecules). Notice the fit between the spine and stop pin. Notice the machining required to actually make that lock as "consistantly secure" as it is. Coloring titanium is a complicated process. different clors take more time.

I don't know that I would call them compromises. Just less time. You want machined titanium, no short cuts.

Dark - I have never seen any stampings on God's critters knives, although I've learned much about knives from studying them. Unfortunately most of the knives that humans carry are stamped China.

By the way, Chris' Sebenza easily passed Spydercos "A" lock strength rating - Acceptable for heavy duty use. (over 400 inch/lbs force/torque to cause the lock to fail. The failure was not catastrophic (which is ultimately safer). The lock failed exactly as predicted by Chris and the Spyderco R & D crew. Not too many folding knives out there do that, production or custom.
sal
 
It's nice to see everyone come to support a company like Chris Reeve's, the knives he creates or designs have a very very loyal following, but only because, as stated above, the work, thought, time and effort to create these are superb. A fellow where I work recently has succumbed to the steel virus, and he points his finger at me as being the carrier, but he started slowly buy getting a Benchmade and then another and another until one day he saw my Large Sebenza and I could see it in his eyes, must have Sebenza, need to have Sebenza. And sure enough, when I found a place where I was going to buy my small Sebenza he joined in my order for a Large Sebenza, we cut the shipping this way, gotta save somewhere!, And now with this plunge he hasn't regetted it at all. He also looked at the Pinnacle and wondered if the value of the Sebenza is twice that. It does my heart good to see him happy, but I can't get him to use the knife, that will come later, maybe.

So Jedi Knife I kick in my .02 and say in agreement with those above, it depends on what you value as worthwhile, A fellow forumite, Kodiak PA once related to me in an email that `Looking at the cost I could have bought several knives for the price of this, but I love it and it's worth it to me' (had to tell em' Greg.

Take care, sorry for running on so long,
G2

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When a fellow says, "it ain't the money but the principle of the thing,"
it's the money.
F. McKinney Hubbard

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/7306/blades.html

 
G2,
Very well said---an exact quote, too I might add.
smile.gif


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~Greg~

 
stjames,

I'm glad you are happy with your Chris Reeve knives. Congratulations on getting the bargain on them; most of us face spending upwards of $300.00 to get one! I wish you and yours much continued enjoyment of knives.

JK
 
As much as this might backfire on me, I think it's appropriate here:
Chris Reeve does charge alot of money for a production knife, but it's worth it. As Sal commented, it would cost Spyderco almost as much to make the same knife, and they already have most of the infrestructure in place. The person to take marketing lessons from would have to be Tony Marfione(of Microtech). Anyone who can sell a production knife for $500 or so, not even mentioning the micro-halo at $2000, deserves credit for his business, if not his knives.
Aaron

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aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
Jedi,

I've kinda sat back on this one as my buds Kodiak PA and Doc Welch, among others, have posted succinct and accurate assessments of the value your money buys in a Chris Reeve Sebenza.

Add to that the insights Sal Glesser and a few of our resident forumite knifemakers have imparted, and I think it safe to say CRK combines excellence in design, execution, and customer service.

But I'll add my two centavos anyway. I bought mine last August after years of procrastinating. It, as Walt says, locks up as tight as a bank vault. Sal's comment about the lock failure test is a credit to the design too. Knowing the name Sebenza is Zulu meaning work says a lot. I number it among my three favorite one-handers, each having their own special nitch for use: the 'Benza, the Spydie Military (again, my thanks to Sal
smile.gif
), and the EDI Genesis-I. You indeed get great value from all three manufacturers in their products... their prices are worth what you get and more!

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-=[Bob]=-

I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!



[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 16 May 1999).]
 
Sal, I have seen you quote numbers like this before "400 inch/lbs force/torque", what exactly is this and what are you doing to generate it? That reads as 400 inches per pound of force per torque which makes no sense to me.

As for BG-42 being harder to work and that explaining the $300, please, ask around, decent makers will not charge you much more to upgrade materials. Last time I checked Phil Wilson charged $50 to go from ATS-34 to CPM-420V which is a huge step above BG-42. Reeve charges a lot because he can because he is a name. People buy them at a rate that leaves them backordered so his prices are obviously not high enough.

-Cliff
 
Inch-pounds is a measure of torque -- one pound of force applied one inch from the axis. Us neolithic people usually measure torque in either foot-pounds or inch-pounds -- I think the modern world uses something called newtons? Sorry, I don't know the conversion factor offhand....

So if you put a knife in a vise and rest a 100 pound weight on the blade one inch from the axis you're applying 100 inch-pounds -- or a 50 pound weight two inches from the axis, etc.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
I own a Sebenza and while $325.00 bones is alot of money, this knife is worth every penny spent.

If you don't want to pay that much for a knife, don't. Others have waited months to get one and don't mind the amount of $$$ or time it takes.

This is not a flame on you. You are more than entitled and I welcome your opinion, as you should any others offered up here.

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God bless!

Romans 10:9-10

"Military" Fans Unite!!

 
As a new owner of a small Sebenza, all I can say is WOW! I've owned PLENTY of high end production knives, but this one is the cats buttocks! It resides with me next to my trusted Military. It is the only folder (besides the Military) who's lock I trust implicitly.

Jedi, if you think paying the 300 bucks is a lot for a production knife, try leaving work early, driving 100 miles in a strong rain to the nearest CR dealer, passing through Raleigh at rush hour, and then trading a serial numbered Commander, among other knives for one. I don't regret it one bit and recommend you getting one ASAP! You are missing out, dude.

Thanks,
Chris
 
James, is that the new "standard" Umfaan or a "decorated" Umfaan. It doesn't look anodized, so I hope it is the new design and not a one-of-a-kind.

Somebody call G2 before he picks up a zig-zag! The man has got to see this before he buys anything.

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James
 
This is a reoccuring thread that always raises my hackles a bit, and usually I can resist writing a comment, but I can't resist.

I concede that the Sebenza is a superbly engineered piece of cutlery, perhaps the most secure folder around. This not withstanding, CRK has built a reputation on rock solid service, as is witnessed by the multitudes of folks who have returned their knives for service.

Anyway not to raise an OLD issue, but it seems to me that CRK has become super concillatory to some customers on the net, even going so far as machining fillers for some folks who wanted to cure the asthetic "blemish" of the hole left by the removal of the pocket clip. Who knows...

My point is that CRK gave provided me with the excuse that my request was unreasonable, even though the service had been offered in the past, and the justification was that it was too costly and held up production. Such a refusal is their right, as is mine to disagree with their decision. So if profitability is their ultimate goal over customer satisfaction, I don't want their 300+ dollar production knives...
 
Thanks for the picture. I like that design very much. Is the side of the handle with the design polished? I have the bead blasted circle Umfaan and it has a polished handle on the design side.

To add to the discussion above, the Umfaan is a great knife! All Chris Reeve knives that I have seen are well made knives.

Sal, thank you for the insights. Your knives are great too!
biggrin.gif
It is amazing how strong the fan clubs are for the Spyderco and Reeve knives. In addition to the time spent trying to do it right, I believe the loyalty is also because both respect their customers and are willing to take the time and make the effort to support their customer. Speaking of time, you must have a fast internet connection Sal, but where do you find the time to be so active in the forums. I'm impressed!

Re: Dollars$$$

Let us suppose that hypothetically Chris could charge $50 less for his knife and still manage to make a profit, but because of high market demand he charges what he does, $325.00. It would still be an expensive knife because of materials and quality of workmanship. Considering the backlog on orders he could probably charge more, but apparently tries to keep the price more or less reasonable so that most can buy one if they want it bad enough. (Notice, I did not say afford
smile.gif
) In short, the price is more or less in the ballpark, and it is a fine knife. Further, I prefer a knife that I trust, and I certainly trust this one.

A cheap knife that fails might end up being a lot more expensive!

Donald.
 
Cougar, that is what I figured. The SI unit is Nm , Newton meters. Its odd that the standard units are read reversed "inch pounds".

That number seems very low to me. I would like to know how and where the torque is being applied and what the end result was. I could very easly apply much more than 400 inch lbs of torque by hand. I have handled a Sebenza before and while I didn't try to break it (it wasn't mine) I got the feeling that I would have had a hard time doing it (making the lock fail not the blade).

Cold Steel hangs weights off of their lockbacks all the time. From memory the bigger ones take like 125 lbs at the end of the handles which are like 6 inchs. So that is 750 inch pounds. So a VG has a lock that is almost twice as strong as a Sebenza?

-Cliff
 
Donald - the time is allocated, and actually sometimes pressured. But it is important and enjoyable (at least with this crowd). I also have Danelle to assist. (and Vince).

We believe that it is time well spent in feedback from ELU.

Cliff - 400 inch/lbs is quite a bit, like lifting your refrigerator. I selected 400 lbs based on test results. (originally I set the standard at 500, but this was a little high for most knives tested). There are a good number of models that are made by companies that will do that. Far more that won't. Cold steel folders have very strong locks and we have found the larger ones will go over the 400 inch/lb standard. Spyderco's lite weight Native comfortably exceeds 400.

I am still trying to create the standard, so any input will help. My thoughts currently are 400+ = heavy duty, 200 - 400 medium duty, 100 - 200 light duty and under 100 is for nail cleaning. Any input, please?
sal
 
St James, got your message and took a quick journey back to this thread and WOW you're right, stop the presses, save that zig zag for someone else and that's the knife I'm going to get, it's a <font color=#ff0000>beauty!</font>

wink.gif


G2

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When a fellow says, "it ain't the money but the principle of the thing,"
it's the money.
F. McKinney Hubbard

www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/7306/blades.html




[This message has been edited by Gary W. Graley (edited 18 May 1999).]
 
It doesn't show in the scan (I'll try again at a different angle), but the design side of that Umfaan is polished, and it is the new "standard" Umfaan and not a special "decorated" one. Zig-zags are last year's model. I like this year's model better.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
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