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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Chris Reeve- Financial Wizard
- Thread starter Jedi Knife
- Start date
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- Oct 12, 1998
- Messages
- 1,647
Oh, thanks alot, James. My wife and I are in the middle of looking for a house, and now I have to buy another Umfaan. What the hell am I gonna tell her this time?
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Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
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Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
Cliff Stamp
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Sal, if you are talking about torque then 400 inch pounds is very small. If I take a 12" bar and lean my body weight against it I can produce 3000 inch pounds of torque at the piviot. With only the 4" handle of the Sebenza that would be reduced to 1000 inch pounds. As for lifting a fridge, that requires significant force but little torque (assuming you lift it correctly).
-Cliff
-Cliff
William Johnson
BANNED
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Won't be using the Sebenza for any heavy lifting, that's what I got the Cold Steel for.
Seriously though, It is good to know the numbers and test types used when picking and choosing a good working knife, but don't forget the most important....customer satisfaction. Look way back and I doubt you will come across one negative comment on the Chris Reeve line, except price and the fact that it is not a custom line(really important....?) not to me.
Choose for yourself and pay the price if you will, you won't be disappointed.
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God bless!
Romans 10:9-10
"Military" Fans Unite!!
Seriously though, It is good to know the numbers and test types used when picking and choosing a good working knife, but don't forget the most important....customer satisfaction. Look way back and I doubt you will come across one negative comment on the Chris Reeve line, except price and the fact that it is not a custom line(really important....?) not to me.
Choose for yourself and pay the price if you will, you won't be disappointed.
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God bless!
Romans 10:9-10
"Military" Fans Unite!!
I agree with Cliff Stamp that as I understand it, 400 inch pounds if you try to break something isn't very much. But that's not how you're supposed to use a knife, so "400+" (that's the number we've got, not where it really breaks, which can be any amount more, if I'm not mistaken?) as a general rating will probably do.
I'd be very interested to know if someone has made practical tests to see how much torque is put on a lock during different kinds of usage.
To get back to the actual subject matter:
You don't have to be wizard to understand that when people hand over some money, they aren't really purchasing a service and/or a product. That's just the tangible thing they get.
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www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/diverse/knives/
I'd be very interested to know if someone has made practical tests to see how much torque is put on a lock during different kinds of usage.
To get back to the actual subject matter:
You don't have to be wizard to understand that when people hand over some money, they aren't really purchasing a service and/or a product. That's just the tangible thing they get.
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www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/diverse/knives/
Cliff and Sal,
May I suggest a different thread on "testing". I think it warrants one of its own and would be informative for many of us who do not test knives to the extent you guys do.
BTW, Cliff, I am shocked by as well as appreciative of the dilligence with which you order blades and kick b*tt on them.
sing
[This message has been edited by sing (edited 19 May 1999).]
May I suggest a different thread on "testing". I think it warrants one of its own and would be informative for many of us who do not test knives to the extent you guys do.
BTW, Cliff, I am shocked by as well as appreciative of the dilligence with which you order blades and kick b*tt on them.
sing
[This message has been edited by sing (edited 19 May 1999).]
Cliff Stamp
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- 17,562
Griffon :
I have leaned into folders before while slicing hard objects, mainly while cutting wood. Folders are usually not heavy enough to chop with, nor can they usually take the lateral strain of trying to break the wood out, this means that I end up doing deep slices when I am in a hurry.
So would I. I would have guessed that decent locks would start at 1000 inch pounds and that the better ones would be much higher. I have read some very high standards around for some of the newer locks. For example the rolling lock is claimed to take over 1000 lbs. Assuming that is applied to the end of the handle, that is over 4000 inch pounds of torque on the lock.
Steve Harvey did some testing on the Rolling Lock and Axis awhile back that may be of interest :
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000294.html
Now I can't be specific unless I knew some details, but I would be very surprised if the torques being generated here were not very high due to the short impact times producing very large forces (the force felt is inversely proportional to the duration of impact).
Its not hard to get a feel for torques by the way. Take a torque bar and do a little work with it so you know what say 50 foot pounds feels like (600 inch pounds). You should be able to generate torques over 1000 inch pounds easily. Now of course putting a bar on a folder is kind of moronic so just scale the result to the handle length on the folder. It will still be very high. If you don't have a torque bar try it out the next time you are in a hardware store.
I have some very cheap (<$5) folders that I pick up every now and then when I spot an interesting design aspect. I have not done much with them (poor steel and ergonomics usually) but from what I have done I would have assumed the locks would have been very difficult to fail by hand by just direct force perpendicular to the handle. I'll give this a go and see what happens if I can dig them up. I often give them away once I have see how the aspect of interest effect performance but I may have a couple lying around.
Sing :
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000573.html
Thanks.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 19 May 1999).]
I have leaned into folders before while slicing hard objects, mainly while cutting wood. Folders are usually not heavy enough to chop with, nor can they usually take the lateral strain of trying to break the wood out, this means that I end up doing deep slices when I am in a hurry.
So would I. I would have guessed that decent locks would start at 1000 inch pounds and that the better ones would be much higher. I have read some very high standards around for some of the newer locks. For example the rolling lock is claimed to take over 1000 lbs. Assuming that is applied to the end of the handle, that is over 4000 inch pounds of torque on the lock.
Steve Harvey did some testing on the Rolling Lock and Axis awhile back that may be of interest :
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000294.html
Now I can't be specific unless I knew some details, but I would be very surprised if the torques being generated here were not very high due to the short impact times producing very large forces (the force felt is inversely proportional to the duration of impact).
Its not hard to get a feel for torques by the way. Take a torque bar and do a little work with it so you know what say 50 foot pounds feels like (600 inch pounds). You should be able to generate torques over 1000 inch pounds easily. Now of course putting a bar on a folder is kind of moronic so just scale the result to the handle length on the folder. It will still be very high. If you don't have a torque bar try it out the next time you are in a hardware store.
I have some very cheap (<$5) folders that I pick up every now and then when I spot an interesting design aspect. I have not done much with them (poor steel and ergonomics usually) but from what I have done I would have assumed the locks would have been very difficult to fail by hand by just direct force perpendicular to the handle. I'll give this a go and see what happens if I can dig them up. I often give them away once I have see how the aspect of interest effect performance but I may have a couple lying around.
Sing :
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000573.html
Thanks.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 19 May 1999).]
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 81
In defense of C.R., building a semi-production/custom knife is no easy task, especially when titanium is involved.
First, one must figure in the cost of materials, cost of machinery and other supporting equipment and labor, overhead, etc...all of which needs to be paid for before even the first knife is built and sold.
Now, using the keystone method...let's assume it costs Chris $50 to make the knife. This includes raw materials, machine time, etc. I don't think Chris could build it any less expensive than this - except using cheaper materials or subcontract out to Taiwan - neither of which Chris would do. Chris will then have to double it to pay for his overhead (lighting, electricity, shop rent, UPS/mail, and many other costs) and profit (Chris needs to pay salaries and himself). The knife is now sitting at $100 to the wholesaler. The wholesaler (one who resells to dealers and knifestores) will add a minimum of 25% to their price making the knife $125 to the dealer. The dealer, to pay for his overhead and profit - especially in a large mall type setting - will have to double his cost. The $50 knife is now $250 to the consumer. Chris cannot undercut these dealers or they will discontinue reselling the CR product line. This is known as the distribution problem. Chris needs to sell a given quantity of knives per year in order to stay in business, so he needs these dealers to support his products.
So as you can see, Chris is not to blame here, I don't think anyone is. It is Chris's decision to stay in business so he has to sell knives. It just costs money to distribute them - and it turns out that the customer ends up paying for this distribution process. This has been the attraction of the Internet dealer. The overhead costs are dramatically reduced since no storefront is invloved. Also, if the Internet dealer utilizes the manufacturer as his warehouse, no inventory is required. This is the reason the Internet dealers are usually less expensive than the mall stores.
You may now pick up your diplomas for "Manufacturing & Distribution 101".
Rick
First, one must figure in the cost of materials, cost of machinery and other supporting equipment and labor, overhead, etc...all of which needs to be paid for before even the first knife is built and sold.
Now, using the keystone method...let's assume it costs Chris $50 to make the knife. This includes raw materials, machine time, etc. I don't think Chris could build it any less expensive than this - except using cheaper materials or subcontract out to Taiwan - neither of which Chris would do. Chris will then have to double it to pay for his overhead (lighting, electricity, shop rent, UPS/mail, and many other costs) and profit (Chris needs to pay salaries and himself). The knife is now sitting at $100 to the wholesaler. The wholesaler (one who resells to dealers and knifestores) will add a minimum of 25% to their price making the knife $125 to the dealer. The dealer, to pay for his overhead and profit - especially in a large mall type setting - will have to double his cost. The $50 knife is now $250 to the consumer. Chris cannot undercut these dealers or they will discontinue reselling the CR product line. This is known as the distribution problem. Chris needs to sell a given quantity of knives per year in order to stay in business, so he needs these dealers to support his products.
So as you can see, Chris is not to blame here, I don't think anyone is. It is Chris's decision to stay in business so he has to sell knives. It just costs money to distribute them - and it turns out that the customer ends up paying for this distribution process. This has been the attraction of the Internet dealer. The overhead costs are dramatically reduced since no storefront is invloved. Also, if the Internet dealer utilizes the manufacturer as his warehouse, no inventory is required. This is the reason the Internet dealers are usually less expensive than the mall stores.
You may now pick up your diplomas for "Manufacturing & Distribution 101".
Rick
Jedi: You really hit a sensitve spot on this post didn't you. All I know about CR. knives is that he has several guys working for him, in a 2350 sq. ft. (apx) work shop, & Chris doesn't do much more than sharpen the odd knife these days. I understand your point. Some guys just seem to catch on. The name clicks I suppose. Others that work hard, & produce an excellent knife, just cant seem to make it. I have looked at pics. of his Sebenza folder, & to be honest, really dont see that much in it, but I dont own a C.R. knife & have never held one. There must be something in all the good feedback that he receives. Good luck to him, & us all...Take care!
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Happy Knifemaking...
http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/cut/index.html
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Happy Knifemaking...
http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/cut/index.html
Jedi Knife
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- 728
Is "butt" a forbidden word?
- Joined
- Nov 15, 1998
- Messages
- 3,096
I have read so many good things about Sebenzas on the forums, I was almost brainwashed. Every time I went to a knife show I searched them out to inspect and test drive. Even talked to Chris himself at the Solvang show, quite the gentleman. I just couldn't bring myself to buy one. They are too stiff and the thumbstud digs into my thumb (ever heard of "Sebenza Thumb"?). I agree that they have tight lockup and good steel in the blade but even used, broken in ones I have tried are just too tight. I prefer the Spydie hole and personally carry a Military or M2 AFCK or SOCOM (the only comfortable thumb stud knife I have found). They all lock up just as tight as the Sebenza and I bought all three of them for the price of one Sebenza. I have to agree with Jedi on this one, Sebenzas are nice, but not worth the high price to me. Dealers don't double their money on knives unless you are buying in a mall store. Most internet dealers sell close to their cost...can you say volume? Don't call small run Microtechs "production knives", they are each handmade and worth every dime.
"Hello, my name is John, and I'm a Microholic"
"Hello, my name is John, and I'm a Microholic"
I think some folks still don't get it. There's been all this talk about what it costs to make and distribute these knives as if this is what should set their price. Costs of materials, labor, and distribution/middlemen set a *minimun* sustainable price. Then you add on demand.
The one of the first things I did when I set up shop was to say: what will these knives cost in materials? how long will each take? how much is the bare minimum I can make per hour? OK, that's my price.
The first thing my dad, the accountant, did was to tell me business hasn't worked that way since the 18th century. My calculations gave me a minimum price to stay in business, but this had no direct bearing on my market price. As a new maker, with no reputation to sell by, I would have to take less, to accept a loss in order to enter the market. Once demand was created, I could expect to charge more. It's not a simple equation of cost + labor + distribution because that fails to take the marketplace into account.
If CRK is selling their Sebenzas for the bare minimum it costs to make them, I'm shocked, because their demand clearly would allow them to charge more. The marketplace doesn't seem to me to be so flooded with quality "custom" knives that buyers will abandon the Sebenza for other folders if it's priced $25 too high.
Yes, name, reputation, hype, and peer pressure are involved. I can't tell you how startled I was when I handled several pieces by a certain "tactical" maker (before he went semi-production) and found that all of them had flaws in action and in finish that I would never have let out of my own shop! And, despite being a serious Spyderco fan, I'm still not totally won over by the Military (though it's quite improved over the first run), even though it's hands-down the most popular production folder on this forum. But for the most part, when you look behind the name and the buzz, you see that there is something solid there.
I think that Jedi Knife wants to be the little boy who tells us all that the Emperor has no clothes on at all. I think that the Emperor is perfectly well dressed. Maybe his crown isn't quite as resplendent as the bards would have us believe, and perhaps his robes aren't quite as spectacular as our friends have reported, but there is a certain air about royalty that leads people to exaggerate just a little. After all, he is still the Emperor.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
The one of the first things I did when I set up shop was to say: what will these knives cost in materials? how long will each take? how much is the bare minimum I can make per hour? OK, that's my price.
The first thing my dad, the accountant, did was to tell me business hasn't worked that way since the 18th century. My calculations gave me a minimum price to stay in business, but this had no direct bearing on my market price. As a new maker, with no reputation to sell by, I would have to take less, to accept a loss in order to enter the market. Once demand was created, I could expect to charge more. It's not a simple equation of cost + labor + distribution because that fails to take the marketplace into account.
If CRK is selling their Sebenzas for the bare minimum it costs to make them, I'm shocked, because their demand clearly would allow them to charge more. The marketplace doesn't seem to me to be so flooded with quality "custom" knives that buyers will abandon the Sebenza for other folders if it's priced $25 too high.
Yes, name, reputation, hype, and peer pressure are involved. I can't tell you how startled I was when I handled several pieces by a certain "tactical" maker (before he went semi-production) and found that all of them had flaws in action and in finish that I would never have let out of my own shop! And, despite being a serious Spyderco fan, I'm still not totally won over by the Military (though it's quite improved over the first run), even though it's hands-down the most popular production folder on this forum. But for the most part, when you look behind the name and the buzz, you see that there is something solid there.
I think that Jedi Knife wants to be the little boy who tells us all that the Emperor has no clothes on at all. I think that the Emperor is perfectly well dressed. Maybe his crown isn't quite as resplendent as the bards would have us believe, and perhaps his robes aren't quite as spectacular as our friends have reported, but there is a certain air about royalty that leads people to exaggerate just a little. After all, he is still the Emperor.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Messages
- 17,562
Chief, I have handled a Sebenza and while the lock release is tight, the opening was smooth. The thumbstud problem is a matter of technique.
Rick, Reeve is is custom league with his prices and they are there because they can be, its that simple. Its not just Reeve. Why does Spyderco sell a knife for $100 that you can buy a clone of for $3 - because they can.
-Cliff
Rick, Reeve is is custom league with his prices and they are there because they can be, its that simple. Its not just Reeve. Why does Spyderco sell a knife for $100 that you can buy a clone of for $3 - because they can.
-Cliff
Jedi Knife
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- 728
Corduroy,
That is an excellent analogy you gave. (The Emeperors' New Clothes).
JK
butt
That is an excellent analogy you gave. (The Emeperors' New Clothes).
JK
butt
Jedi Knife
Banned
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- Messages
- 728
Steve,
Your labelling my post as a "troll" is wrong. If anything, accusing my post of being a troll indicates you can offer no other sensible response.
JK
[This message has been edited by Jedi Knife (edited 20 May 1999).]
Your labelling my post as a "troll" is wrong. If anything, accusing my post of being a troll indicates you can offer no other sensible response.
JK
[This message has been edited by Jedi Knife (edited 20 May 1999).]
I think you have gotten more than your fair share of sensible responses, and I believe Mr. Harvey's comment was intended as a joke. You have done the equivalent of walking into a biker bar and proclaiming "Harleys suck eggs!" - and folks here have responded with reason and personal experience as to why they disagree. I doubt the Hell's Angels of my example would have shown such restraint... but perhaps that's why you choose to engage in such provocation online instead of in person.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Jedi Knife
Banned
- Joined
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- Messages
- 728
I have said nothing of the sort. I have said nothing disrespectful. You seem to have a problem with your perception.
JK
JK
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Messages
- 17,562
To a lot of consumers the Sebenza looks just like any other production folder and the price is much higher so the first though is that Reeve is just ripping people off. To have this forum friendly to the inexperienced as well as the high-end users these kind of questions need to be answered without attacking the poster.
-Cliff
-Cliff
"To have this forum friendly to the inexperienced as well as the high-end users these kind of questions need to be answered without attacking the poster."
Fair enough, but those questions must also be posed in a respectful manner. I feel that this began with an attack on Mr. Reeve's business tactics; once it was deciphered it appears that Mr. Reeve was being compared to P.T. Barnum and all his customers were the "suckers." Do I misread the sarcasm in the statement: "Way to go Mr. Reeve! I should have started a high-end lemonade stand as a kid, $10.00 a glass."
Jedi, I agree that you have conducted yourself respectfully since your initial statement, and I apologize for attacking you as I did. In fact, I sympathize, because I have been in a similar position regarding the Military that is so beloved of nearly everyone on the forum. But I found it better to express my feelings as confusion rather than outright criticism, and I feel I got a more positive response thereby.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Fair enough, but those questions must also be posed in a respectful manner. I feel that this began with an attack on Mr. Reeve's business tactics; once it was deciphered it appears that Mr. Reeve was being compared to P.T. Barnum and all his customers were the "suckers." Do I misread the sarcasm in the statement: "Way to go Mr. Reeve! I should have started a high-end lemonade stand as a kid, $10.00 a glass."
Jedi, I agree that you have conducted yourself respectfully since your initial statement, and I apologize for attacking you as I did. In fact, I sympathize, because I have been in a similar position regarding the Military that is so beloved of nearly everyone on the forum. But I found it better to express my feelings as confusion rather than outright criticism, and I feel I got a more positive response thereby.
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)