Chris Reeve Knives - The Emperor's New Clothes?

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I have never owned a CRK, but they have come up with some pretty interesting and innovative designs over the years. My comment is more about the high end production/specialty cutlery industry in general. The explosion of custom knifemaking raised the bar for the many of the production outfits. Offering custom knife materials and features cost money. A raw chunk of Crucible CPM steel retails for about as much or more than some WalMart folders do. As a new custom maker, when I sell a 10 inch stag handled W2 bowie in a $160 Paul Long alligator sheath for $475, I do that because I haven't been doing this for long enough to ask $750-1000:D But the production guys have to make money to cover the cost their overhead, materials, employees, marketing., etc and have some left over to take home. They also have to sell their knives to retailers, etc for about 60% of MSRP. Sure, some knives may have a bit of a premium added to the price because of high demand and reputation, but I don't think that anyone is getting rich. If you want to make some knives in China using basic carbon steel like CS does, you can charge a lot less and still produce a servicable knife.
The good news for guys like me is that the price gap between the really good production stuff and custom knives made by people whose last name is not Loveless, Young, Fisk, Hancock or Dean has closed up. For the MSRP of a Cold Steel Natchez Bowie in San Mai, (which, of course, nobody ever pays) I can sell a similar knife made from W2 with better handle materials and an infinitely better sheath. Now if I could just cut through that fanatical brand loyalty that guys companies like CRK, Busse, CS and Strider have developed, I would be in hog heaven:D
 
First off, these personal little squabbles that come up are ridiculous. We have different opinions. Deal with it. We could go all day on "who started the personal insults," but the fact is, anybody that retaliates is just reducing themselves to the others' level anyway. But that's just my opinion.. I say that a lot. You're free to do with it what you will. It means more to me than you anyway.

Sebenza musings.. What else makes it worth the extra dough..

-Mine's an inlay model, as mentioned before. From what I've heard, although this could be marketing, but the actual inlays and machining for the inlays is done with such precision that, although adhesive is used to keep the wood in, it's not entirely necessary, as the fit is so close. (Just for the record, this is hearsay, which I hold with some value.)
-The bushing, as mentioned before. This is an excellent concept, and not to be pushed aside. To have a knife that has been used fairly regularly over the last 3.5 years, has had sand inside, and been disassembled numerous times, to not have any blade play, is remarkable. Many folks talk about knives not having play in them. Until you handle a Sebenza, it's tough to know what that means. (Some others that I've handled that come close would include the Kershaw RAM, the ZT MUDD, and any Strider folder I've come across.)
-I'm just noticing this now, but to reiterate a statement I made last time about beveling on edges, the inner edges of the lock bar are indeed beveled as well. Not twice, but once, which is still much more significant than any other framelock folder I've seen.
-The holes for the frame screws are countersunk. This is done on many production folders, but not to the same tolerances as the CRK. Running a nail along the handle, one cannot detect a crack as to where the screw actually starts. The only hint that it does start is that it rises. Of course, to the eye, it's easy to tell the difference, but to a nail, it does not make the "click" that one would normally find on a production countersunk frame screw.
-The clip is well thought out. I'm a fan of tip up carry for one thing, so this makes me happy, but other than that, the clip has a bend put into it 1/3 of the way towards the unattached end of it, which clips neatly over a normal seam of a blue jean pocket, and decently over a dress pants pocket, providing excellent retention without serious drag. The Sebenza doesn't rip up a pocket the way a normal clip, relying only on tension from the end of the clip, does.

-This last one is much more opinion than fact, so let me preface that first. The fact (fact) that CRK encourages normal users to disassemble their knife to keep it running right is in my opinion (opinion) awesome. BM states specifically that disassembly may void a warranty, and although I'm not clear on Spyderco, it's possible that there may be something to do with that as well. The Sebenza is so simple, yet so well done, that a slack-jawed Canadian can disassemble it, clean everything that needs to be cleaned, and reassemble it, maintaining it properly, rather than spraying God-knows-what into who-knows-where, then relubing, with the hope that everything that needs to be cleaned got cleaned, as one would find on many lockbacks, Axis/Arc locks, torsion bar assisted openers, and the like.

You'll note that much more of this has to do with construction quality than, say, cutting performance and ergonomics. The construction quality is where a person can quantitatively assess the Sebenza. Cutting performance has such a large margin for error between different users that it's hard to use it for an argumentative basis, and ergonomics varies as much as the human hand does between individuals. I like how the Sebenza feels in my hand, and it cuts well for what I need it to cut.

For those that think the Sebenza is an elitist thing, they're both right and wrong. You have to be the right type of person to understand why the Sebenza is worth so much, and also why a $10 Opinel will do just as well of a knife, sacrificing some in the ease-of-carry department. The Sebenza, if just a knife, costs too much for the average person, but the careful thought processes, the manufacturing details, and the reliable simplicity of it are the things going on behind the scenes that add to overall value of it.

The Sebenza's not for everybody. This is my take on it. If you wouldn't appreciate these little details mentioned in this post and my post preceding this, don't buy one. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache when you realize the Sebenza is, to you, just another knife. To those who love CRK and all it stands for, good for you, but understand that some will never need a Sebenza, and that a Spyderco, Kershaw, Byrd, Buck, Benchmade, SOG, or Stanley boxcutter may serve just the same purpose, or do even better than the CRK could for them.

Sorry for exploring this so deeply, especially in a degrading thread, but this is one guy's thoughts on the whole deal.

Travis
 
Amen to that Hamon.:thumbup:I really appreciate CRK making left hand models. It's great to be able to enjoy the high quality of a left hand dedicated framelock without having to deal with "custom" makers.:cool::thumbup::D
 
Excellent! Thanks a lot. This make clear to me what it is so special about Sebenza and where this price came from. I hope some other owner will add few points if it is possible after such detailed answer.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I just checked it on the Web - so many variants of handles and decorations. I am wondering why they do not make steel variants as well? Why not ZDP189 for example?
 
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nozh2002 said:
Excellent! Thanks a lot. This make clear to me what it is so special about Sebenza and where this price came from. I hope some other owner will add few points if it is possible after such detailed answer.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I just checked it on the Web - so many variants of handles and decorations. I am wondering why they do not make steel variants as well? Why not ZDP189 for example?
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Considering CR worked with Crucible to develop S30V, it would seem odd to me if they didn't use it as their primary blade steel. That being said, they do offer the option of damascus.

P.S. There are other blade steel variants out there for CRKs (like BG42), but you have to hunt for them ;).
 
AMRaider said:
Considering CR worked with Crucible to develop S30V, it would seem odd to me if they didn't use it as their primary blade steel. That being said, they do offer the option of damascus.

P.S. There are other blade steel variants out there for CRKs (like BG42), but you have to hunt for them ;).
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With all this different decorations and handles it seems natural to offer different steels. It is obvious now that CPM S30V is not best of the best, especially for small cutters. So far if they do not know Dozier's secret for heat treatment, best choice for folder is stainless ZDP-189 - Crucible did not came close enough yet to ZDP-189 performance. W&H, for example, did switch to ZDP-189 right away, once they see it - even usinf Japanese Kitchen knives as a source of it.

I think with all this perfection they just need to offer perfect steel as well.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili probably assumed that since CR offers a bunch of different handle materials, and presumably has access to a bunch of different handle material manufacturers, CR might have access to the same amount of blade steel manufacturers. Seems logical, he's a household name as far as knife production is concerned, and even though handle material and blade steel aren't necessarily related, CR could probably gain access to a number of different steels if he chose to.

You don't agree? With your response, please try to make a reference to the knife making industry, as that is the subject at hand.
 
Why does it seem logical? Blades are blades; I would think it logical to see a single standardized, heat-treated, sharpened blade mated with multiple handles because there's a lot more precision and work involved in producing the blade to consistent standards (whereas the exact RC hardness of your handle isn't nearly so important).

I don't see why anyone would take it as axiomatic that having multiple handles means it's only "natural" to offer multiple blade steels. The burden of substantiation is on the person making the assertion.
 
Please, do not feed the troll. Lets not argue just to be argueing. I see no point to answer Sharp Phill, after seeing quite a bit of his posts. I guess we may save quite a bit of time avoiding his pointless engagements.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Thanks for the response Phil, and I see your point.

I'm just not sure I understand why you're asking the question. Is it to prove that Vassili is being axiomatic when you feel like he shouldn't be?

It just seems like you're more interested in starting a debate. Perhaps he used the wrong word ("natural"); it's no reason to be combative.
 
nozh2002 said:
Please, do not feed the troll. Lets not argue just to be argueing. I see no point to answer Sharp Phill, after seeing quite a bit of his posts. I guess we may save quite a bit of time avoiding his pointless engagements.

Thanks, Vassili.
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The same could be, and (in fact) is, said of you...
 
Sharp Phil said:
Why does it seem logical? Blades are blades; I would think it logical to see a single standardized, heat-treated, sharpened blade mated with multiple handles because there's a lot more precision and work involved in producing the blade to consistent standards (whereas the exact RC hardness of your handle isn't nearly so important).

I don't see why anyone would take it as axiomatic that having multiple handles means it's only "natural" to offer multiple blade steels. The burden of substantiation is on the person making the assertion.
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On a separate note, I do see your point, and I agree with both you and Vassili, but only to a certain extent.

I would think that a knifemaker with CR's reputation could gain access to any number of blade steels and handle materials, if he decided he wanted to branch out. Just my opinion though.

Anybody know if he's contractually restricted to using S30V (due to his role in its development)? Or if he just really likes working with that type of steel?
 
Sharp Phil said:
Why does it seem logical? Blades are blades; I would think it logical to see a single standardized, heat-treated, sharpened blade mated with multiple handles because there's a lot more precision and work involved in producing the blade to consistent standards (whereas the exact RC hardness of your handle isn't nearly so important)...
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Phil's point of view is inline with the French knife industry: most high quality french knives such as laguioles have Sandvik 12C27 blades, as their makers (and the buying public) consider this steel to be largely good enough, excellent even. I agree that it's a nice steel. Differentiation rather comes from differences in handle materials, next to general build precision and of course design.

In contrast American knife lovers tend to be real steel sluts :-) and companies like Spyderco indeed offer the same model with different blade materials.
So the query about other blade steels is not that unlogical.
 
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