CNC.......What do you think?

If CNC can make a blade look better, perform better, have its parts refurbished easier, or keep a maker from committing sepuku while making a folder, I'm all for it!
 
I agree with RJ and Bailey, My problem is i can barely run a drill press, so I dont see a CNC in my future.... just a rusty ole hammer and anvil.
 
RogerP said:
Riiiight. :rolleyes: Mike, next time you see bladesmith come on the forums and start slagging stock removal makers as a bunch of snake-oil selling blowhards you be sure to point it out, okay? As for a stock removal maker slagging bladesmiths - well, I guess we'll just wait for the next post or three from you. You make fine knives Mike. I just sure hope nobody ever puts you in charge of world peace.

Roger
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I'll leave the world peace to the air headed bleach blonds running for beauty queen of of what ever! Sorry I offend you. All you have to do is go thru past post here. Or open your ears at ANY SHOW. As to the falvor of the month, I chew those guys just as hard. I don't care for smake joil, no matter who is trying to shovel it down my throat. Oh, and world peace! NOT!
cocked and Locked, and ready to rock Dock! Thats not a calostomy bag under my shirt!
 
mlovett said:
I'll leave the world peace to the air headed bleach blonds running for beauty queen of of what ever! Sorry I offend you. All you have to do is go thru past post here. Or open your ears at ANY SHOW. As to the falvor of the month, I chew those guys just as hard. I don't care for smake joil, no matter who is trying to shovel it down my throat. Oh, and world peace! NOT!
cocked and Locked, and ready to rock Dock! Thats not a calostomy bag under my shirt!
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Sorry Mike, you're selling, but I'm not buying. You make quite generalized and very negative comments about bladesmiths while casting yourself as the lone courageous paragon of truth willing to say it like it is. Dude, please. I am not offfended. But I am likely to point out a big smelly load of B.S. when somebody drops a pile and leaves it steaming in the middle of the room. Like you did. You may be acknowledging now that the snake-oil sellers are not limited to one type of maker, but that sure isn't what you were saying before. And that was entirely the point of my rebuttal.

And you completely lost me on that last bit.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
And you completely lost me on that last bit.

Roger
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He's saying that he is not a "can't we just get along" kind of person, basically.
(Good thing that I speak Texan!)
Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Far be it for a canuck to step into the middle of a shitstorm, but I just couldn't resist (us with our blue helmets and white humvees). Personally, I see value in both methods, stock removal (which I practice) and forging (which I would like to learn -- space and equipment budget willing) and have heard way too much BS from both camps. As far as I'm concerned, most makers are somewhat involved in both (stock removers using forged damascas billets, forgers grinding out a blade shape) and there's a lot to be learned from both camps. Most of the argument seems to be concerned with technology and advancement vs. tradition. I don't see an end to this anytime soon so let's just let the custom knife buyer decide. Money talks and bullshit walks.
 
I fooled around with a CNC once, way more work! Hats off to anyone who can learn to use one of the damn machines!
 
I only read the opening post so what I say has probably already been said. I have no problem with the CNC equipment being used. As far as I am concerned it makes for a knife with tighter tolerances. For a folder this will translate to better fit and finish, better/smoother action, and that all elusive "rock-solid" lockup. I have a RJ Martin Devastator coming this week and knowing beforehand that it was built using CNC did not make me hesitate one bit.:thumbup: I also have a Pat Crawford Raider that should be ready in March and as far as I know(?) it was also made using CNC.:D
 
RMLamey said:
I agree with RJ and Bailey, My problem is i can barely run a drill press, so I dont see a CNC in my future.... just a rusty ole hammer and anvil.
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A lot of us are in that boat..............


Gettting a CNC requires a big committment of time and money.....many cant afford to do this or arent willing to make the sacrifices.......I thought long and hard about getting a Bridgeport type machine two years ago (right around 20-25K), a lot of people told me to do it, one in particular is a gun maker friend of mine who has three $50K+ machines........Paying for them is one thing, but learning how to use them is the real trial......after all, you really dont need a $50K chunk of metal in your shop just sitting there........I really applaud all those guys who have done this.........I cannot applaud someone who has all the parts made, by his machine or some others, and just puts them together, as is the case in a few shops I know about!
 
tom mayo said:
I cannot applaud someone who has all the parts made, by his machine or some others, and just puts them together, as is the case in a few shops I know about!
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Not only do I agree with this statement, Tom, but will not knowingly buy from a maker for whom this is a practice.

Then....you get into how honest and forthcoming makers are about the production of their work, an entirely different thread to be sure.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I am going to be learning how to operate and maintain a CNC machine. I work for a granite & marble fabricating company and we are going to start doing a lot of the work with CNC that used to be done by hand. When I was offered the training on how to run a CNC machine, I figured it would be very good experience.
 
If I ever make knives, I will be learning to forge, though there are still some things that could be done via CNC (intricate handle work for instance).

I am starting to see much more reasonably priced CNC machines on the market. They are also becoming much easier to operate. The hardest part is keeping them maintained.
 
Here is my opinion. IF a maker is already using a mill or lathe, which many do, then I have no problem with the maker hooking up a PC to a machine and doing with CNC what he was already doing with "hand and Mod 1 calibrated eyeball" In my mind, that is still a "custom" or "handmade knife". That goes for blanking blades, etc. too, if'n you are a stokc removal guy. If the market wants a perfect fit at the guard slot, then program your mill to do it. That is merely a time saving device. Bevels and blade finishing, on the other hand, are a slightly different story in my book.
 
jdm61 said:
In my mind, that is still a "custom" or "handmade knife". That goes for blanking blades, etc. too, if'n you are a stokc removal guy. If the market wants a perfect fit at the guard slot, then program your mill to do it. That is merely a time saving device. Bevels and blade finishing, on the other hand, are a slightly different story in my book.
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What about grinds that are impossible to otherwise do by hand like the tri-beveled and striated blade on the Havoc by R.J. Martin?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
What about grinds that are impossible to otherwise do by hand like the tri-beveled and striated blade on the Havoc by R.J. Martin?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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not "impossible"....just economically impractical. A CNC machine is not a magic lamp...it is merely a tool.
 
Actually, when it comes to practicality, a CNC machine can be a magic lamp. Maybe the stuff being done by RJ Martin and Larry Davidson could be done without a CNC machine, but the final cost of the knife would be astronomical. The fact that RJ can sell his knives for ~$500.00 is because of CNC. It is also very likely that the maker would not have the ability to do that kind of stuff any other way. Just because it is possible to do doesn't mean that every maker would have the talent required to do so.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Actually, when it comes to practicality, a CNC machine can be a magic lamp. Maybe the stuff being done by RJ Martin and Larry Davidson could be done without a CNC machine, but the final cost of the knife would be astronomical. The fact that RJ can sell his knives for ~$500.00 is because of CNC. It is also very likely that the maker would not have the ability to do that kind of stuff any other way. Just because it is possible to do doesn't mean that every maker would have the talent required to do so.
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All knife makers that work on their craft eventually become "knife designers" to some degree. But with a totally or predominantly machine made product, the inverse is kinda fuzzy, even if the knife is a one of a kind or one off. Someone like Mick Strider (regardless of how you feel about him and his products) is still a knifemaker, even though the lions share of his stuff is outsourced. He still stands in front of the grinder and makes his custom line. But regular Striders are not "custom made" and if that is all he sold, he would not be a knifemaker in my book. He would be a designer and manufacturer of knives. To a lot of folks, that is not an important distinction....hence the rise of the "mid tech' business. To others, it is. We see the same type of discussion regarding guys who customize and embellish kits. Is it different if you programmed the machine or someone else did, ? Once the bit starts moving, you sit back and watch the show either way, regardless of who owns the machine.:D Whihc raises the "sole authorship" question too. I am sure that thee are a number of folks who only want to buy knives that are sole authorship and done free hand with no grinding jigs, laser/water blanking, CNC, etc.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Actually, when it comes to practicality, a CNC machine can be a magic lamp. Maybe the stuff being done by RJ Martin and Larry Davidson could be done without a CNC machine, but the final cost of the knife would be astronomical. The fact that RJ can sell his knives for ~$500.00 is because of CNC. It is also very likely that the maker would not have the ability to do that kind of stuff any other way. Just because it is possible to do doesn't mean that every maker would have the talent required to do so.
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You are correct. And some people do make wild knives with imposible grinds and detail by hand and the prices ARE astronomical.
:eek:
 
mlovett said:
ND, You are in the majority in your thinking. It is becoming a finer and finer line. If not for the "romanticizing" there wouldn't be a Custom or Hand made business in the first place. At one time, many felt that if a custom maker could' make a better knife than a factory, there was no reason to make it in the first place. The better, cleaner work was its reason for existing. I have never bought it. That often quoted line that I couldn't find a good knife so I had to make one. (I know a few makers who have the audacity to use that line, who were not then, or now as good as the average factory knife.) They had no more idea of what to look for in a quality product, than how to make it. Nothing has changed that. But as the many ways of making cutlery get closer and closer. The lines blurry. There are some very well made factory knives out there these days. The factories use CNC a lot. If a model is being made a few at a time. It is one thing. If they are being made in good numbers, they may not both be factory knives, but they are both production knives. The biggest difference being the size of the building they came out of .(Thats a joke folks) I don't recall a solid number being posted of how many machines, and or employee' s it takes to become a factory. That one is up for grabs .The one thing that has come to light, and worries me the most reading this thread, is that no one seems to have an answer. It use to be cut and dry. I fear this could back fire on all of us. We may loose the very backbone of why our industry, and hobbies were started in the first place. Mike
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The irony is that arguably, the production knife business is bigger and better today because they had to react, and in a lot of cases, team up with the custom knife makers. One thing that CNC and other technologies have done is allow the knife companies to produce some interesting designs. However, a lot of them are still restricted on the quality of pieces they can make by cost and time constraints. All you have to do is look at what happened to Gerber to see that sometimes the cost of making a really good knife outruns what the avergae customer is willing to pay, so you end up with the Fiskars abortions. But I don't think that anyone will argue that if you can't find a very nice using knife that you like in the current crop of factory offerings then you are not looking hard enough.
 
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