CNC.......What do you think?

Personally, I would agree with all of you that CNC technology can be a very beneficial tool and most likely will become more and more common among makers. However, there still a definite need for hand-craftmanship/hand skills to distinguish the truly custom blade from production pieces. Whenever I look at another maker's work, I look for the fine details (inlay, engraving, fit and finish) that tells me about the care and personality that they've brought to the piece. Maybe this is all just romanticized bs (as some would call it) but to me the "soul" (and a large part of the value) of any custom blade should come from the care and skill of the hands that made it. By all means use CNC if you want to, but don't let it become the be all and end all.
 
As far as collectivity, would a handmade knife be more valuable in the long run than one done with a CNC from the same maker? If this was mentioned earlier I apologize as my head is spinning and can't read anymore.
 
alejandrino said:
As far as collectivity, would a handmade knife be more valuable in the long run than one done with a CNC from the same maker? If this was mentioned earlier I apologize as my head is spinning and can't read anymore.
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I think that would depend on the maker, and the knife. Some makers do their best work when they involve CAD/CAM and CNC.
 
ND, You are in the majority in your thinking. It is becoming a finer and finer line. If not for the "romanticizing" there wouldn't be a Custom or Hand made business in the first place. At one time, many felt that if a custom maker could' make a better knife than a factory, there was no reason to make it in the first place. The better, cleaner work was its reason for existing. I have never bought it. That often quoted line that I couldn't find a good knife so I had to make one. (I know a few makers who have the audacity to use that line, who were not then, or now as good as the average factory knife.) They had no more idea of what to look for in a quality product, than how to make it. Nothing has changed that. But as the many ways of making cutlery get closer and closer. The lines blurry. There are some very well made factory knives out there these days. The factories use CNC a lot. If a model is being made a few at a time. It is one thing. If they are being made in good numbers, they may not both be factory knives, but they are both production knives. The biggest difference being the size of the building they came out of .(Thats a joke folks) I don't recall a solid number being posted of how many machines, and or employee' s it takes to become a factory. That one is up for grabs .The one thing that has come to light, and worries me the most reading this thread, is that no one seems to have an answer. It use to be cut and dry. I fear this could back fire on all of us. We may loose the very backbone of why our industry, and hobbies were started in the first place. Mike
 
I don't forsee our industry loosing any ground. No matter how I make my knives, the reason my customers return is the relationship built on a mutual interest. THAT is why custom knives have survived IMHO. It can also be a downfall for many makers who don't pay attention to that facet.

You are correct Mike, in regards to many custom knives being no better than good factory knives. The difference is the ability of a custom maker to instill an intrinsic value to his work that no factory will ever have. Good custom makers who have excellent customer relationships will last far longer than a great maker with no personality to share his work, passion and experiences.

And I admit, I do have an axe to grind about the ABS test blade issue. If the notion that the ABS is perpetuating blades to be made only to pass the bend test, then you are listening to the wrong smiths. Is a forged blade better than stock removal....not on the merrits of forging itself. In fact, more damage can be done than any benefit received if not forged properly, and then stress releived and grain reduction. The major benfit I see from the ABS' testing is to ensure some standard. It isn't the final goal, but more to say...."if you can do this, you are doing something right". I had a student in one of the Intro to bladesmithing courses bend his knife almost to 90 ( we couldn't get it to go all the way to 90 before the vise started to pull away fromt he bench), it sprang back to about a 5 degree set, hammered it straight, and he is still using it on his farm. It cut like a deamon. Chopped a bunch of 2x4s and still shaved, basicly did everything we asked it to do. That is the level of performance that can only be achieved by knowing your steel, and preparing it for heat treating as well as doing a first rate job on the heat treat itself. That is what the ABS is about. That is what the majority of the smiths I talk to are trying to perpetuate. There are some great stock removal makers doing very well in the ICCT cutting competitions.....Their approach is the same...to tweak the design, heat treat and technique of cutting to achieve as high a level of performance as possible. Sounds the same to me, they just don't hit it with a hammer.
 
Bailey Bradshaw said:
You are correct Mike, in regards to many custom knives being no better than good factory knives. The difference is the ability of a custom maker to instill an intrinsic value to his work that no factory will ever have. Good custom makers who have excellent customer relationships will last far longer than a great maker with no personality to share his work, passion and experiences.
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The extremely high quality of factory knives today is one of the biggest chalenges to Makers of "using knives." Even ten years ago one reason folks looked to a Custom Maker was to get better steel, better design and a better fit and finish; now good factory knives use the same steels as the Custom Makers, have excellent fit and finish and often ARE factory versions of Custom maker's designs being produced under license!

I totally agree that customer/Maker relations are often a decidinfg factor for buyers and Makers who ignore this aspect are shooting themselves in the foot.

Interestingly enough, some of the most successful factory operations are owned and managed by people who themselves have direct relations with their customers, getting feedback and reping their products directly to the buyers. I'm thinking of Chris Reeve, Ernest Emerson, Sal Glasser and Tony Marfioni but there are others.

Mike: too bad you aren't closer, I'd be happy to have you spend a few days in my shop and shop you all I can about CNC milling if I could spend a few days in your shop and have you show me how you get that wonderful grind and finish on your blades!
:D
 
I have been following this thread for a few days now and couldn't quite figure out how to state my answer. I think I have a handle now on what I want to say, but if it sounds like rubbish to you, just ignore it.

If CNC helps the maker bring the concept of the knife design into reality, I think there is no issue with that. I do think though that some hand-work (besides pure final assembly) adds some 'soul' to the knife. Be it final handle shaping, blade polishing, embellishment such as engraving or handle contouring, etc.

With respect to this, I see knives belonging into different categories (at least for me):

Category 1:
I buy some knives knowing that it is quite possible for me to run into an exact piece like it owned by someone else (given possible very minor variations). I believe this to be true of makers that are conducting their business like Darrell Ralph does. CNC and/or other repeatable steps using machines seem to benefit this business model. Since I have the initial knowledge then that is just part of that knife.

Category 2:
I buy some other knives knowing that there will be other knives that are very similar but probably less exactly like it (often due to the handmade approach). This is because the design is very popular and has stood the test of time. For example, I would think that this applies to Loveless-style knives by Mike Lovett, John Young, etc. If these types of knives were made primarily by machines, I think they would be part of category 1. For these knives, I do value that hand-made aspect enough that a lot of CNC work would perhaps give me pause. This is because a knife I would buy from category 1 is very unique in its design by that maker. A knife in category 2 is not unique by its design so the variations from each maker make the knife more unique and give it more identity (in my opinion). If it was all done by machine, I think the different makers' knives would start being a lot more similar. I do like Kressler knives though and as far as I have read he uses machines (I just don't know to what extend); however, he has made enough variations to the design to make the knives recognizable as his own.

Category 3:
Knives that I order as true custom knives - as in I ordered the knife with certain specifications. As stated above, I don't have a problem with someone using CNC to accomplish this task, but if the now-existing knowledge in the machine is used to make multiple copies of the same exact knife, I would be upset. I expect not to run into a knife that looks very similar in some else's hands. Of course "very similar" is rather subjective.
I think Bailey is partially right in that custom knife making has a lot to do with the relationship, but I don't think that is enough. There has to be something else that separates the groups. Otherwise I can just as easily have a great relationship with a dealer even if that dealer sells production pieces. BTW, I think Bailey definitely has the "something else".

Category 4:
Pretty much the same as 3 except that the knife is not to my specifications but rather something the knife maker dreamed up himself (or herself). This type of knife might be bought at a show, via a dealer or via the "available" page on the maker's website.

The above categories are probably not enough and I likely have some knives that don't fit into any of the specific categories, but it provides some insight as to how I view this subject.
 
That often quoted line that I couldn't find a good knife so I had to make one. (I know a few makers who have the audacity to use that line, who were not then, or now as good as the average factory knife.)
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I'm sorry Mike but I just don't know what to say. I started making blades for pretty much this exact reason. Any factory knife I could find up here in Canada just would not hold an edge the way I wanted it to (sharpening 2-3 times in the course of butchering a single deer, etc.). I spent the last 2 1/2 years learning and expirementing and am only now at the point where I feel that the fit, feel, and aesthetic of my work is good enough to actually sell (have sold 2 knives so far). As for the difference between factory and custom, fit and finish is very impressive on the mid to high end factory blades that I have seen but I still am finding a huge issue with edge holding and ductility of factory blades. This year I made a skinner/hunter out of 0-1, differentially tempered it, and used it to gut, skin, debone, and butcher a full deer (and it's still sharp). Besides all of that, no factory knife can be made to fit a customer's hand and specifications (steel, handle material, embellishment) like a custom blade can. Now, I've still got a lot to learn, and there is no way I'll ever claim to be above a factory blade (I've learned a whole lot by looking at ways to improve or alter factory blades to fit a specific need) but to me, the factory blade addresses a common need and the custom blade addresses a specific one. Anyway, sorry for the slightly off topic ramble.:foot:
 
Very well put Bailey. But I have to tell you that I have over the years, heard quite a few smiths putting the myth into their spill at a show. I know Many, Many customers that take it for granted that all the smoke and mirrors are God's own truth. If a Stock removal maker should claim one I- ohta of superiority for a given technique over stock removal. He would be admonished to the cows come home here on the forums. Yet Anything a Smith says is taken for gospel. I can't begin t count the number of times I've seen it here. What irks me the most is not only are the stock removal makers speaking up in defense of the trade. Almost all of the claims taken for granted as truth are out right BS. Yet not one maker will speak out in fear of being flamed, ridiculed, or out right banded. How did we get to the point that fiction is so much more important in this trade. Kevin- Sounds like a very worth while trade!!! NDallyn I think if you will read over your own post, you may find that you made my point for me. I think if you really needed a knife that badly, the time you have taken to learn the craft would have turned up countless quality knives. Good thing you learned to make them yourself. As this is much more satisfying. But in all this time, there were older m-2 steel Gerber's . Older Randall's, fallen knives. Bench made. The older Puma' with high carbon pum-master steel were fantastic. low cost, high performance, Dozier D-2. Man, I could fill a book. I think you wanted secretly to learn how to make knives. Even not like your car. I would like a Ferrari. Don't think either of us will go out back and build one. There is not much you can think of that yo need or want that isn't you on the planet some where. I think that at only 2 1/2 years ago that there were more than enough custom makers out there that could have filled you needs as well. I once made a knife for the ranch Foreman at the Kennedy Ranch. For those that don't know, that is the sister ranch to the King. The largest ranch in the US. I make it of vasco wear. In one year, they dressed over 135 head of dear 12 or so neal-gi. Numerous wild boar, and when sent in for sharpening, there were still spots on the blade that would shave. How's that. What steel was it? Vasco Wear, put into service at 66-68 RC. It is so tough that it is used for the locking detent on the 747 that carry the Space Shuttle, and for the input shafts for Top Fuel, Dragsters, and Funny cars. Mike
 
mlovett said:
But I have to tell you that I have over the years, heard quite a few smiths putting the myth into their spill at a show. I know Many, Many customers that take it for granted that all the smoke and mirrors are God's own truth. If a Stock removal maker should claim one I- ohta of superiority for a given technique over stock removal. He would be admonished to the cows come home here on the forums. Yet Anything a Smith says is taken for gospel. I can't begin t count the number of times I've seen it here. What irks me the most is not only are the stock removal makers speaking up in defense of the trade. Almost all of the claims taken for granted as truth are out right BS. Yet not one maker will speak out in fear of being flamed, ridiculed, or out right banded. How did we get to the point that fiction is so much more important in this trade.
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We're moving pretty far afield from the CNC issue, but I couldn't let this pass without commenting on what sounds to me like a gross generalization. Mike, I am here to tell you that contrary to the suggestion in your post, smiths have not cornered the market on bullsh!t. I have heard more than one stock removal maker - and many a customer of theirs - touting their new wonder-steel of the month that is so fantastic it will do everything but your taxes. As for makers cowering in silence for fear of retribution, well, have you read any of the content of Kevin Cashen's site?

You may wish to consider painting with a slightly narrower brush and, like Kevin, working to diminish the defensive siege mentality that can be found in some members of both the stock removal and bladesmith camps.

Roger
 
Well Said Roger

....You know...I don't , and never have, made claims that just because I forge some of my blades that they are any better than anyone elses. I didn't commit the sin and I won't pay for it. I you have been offended Mike, thats too bad, but there doesn't need to be a line drawn in the sand. The entire point of my statement is to relay that the superiority of a forged blade simply based on the general practices that most smiths employ IS indeed a farse. You are experienced enough to know there is a lot more to a great knife than "differential heat treated, and distal tapered". What is not a farse is the fact that the encouragement of the ABS to have smiths test their blades has pushed levels of performance higher, and everyone has benfited.
 
mlovett said:
....But I have to tell you that I have over the years, heard quite a few smiths putting the myth into their spill at a show. I know Many, Many customers that take it for granted that all the smoke and mirrors are God's own truth. If a Stock removal maker should claim one I- ohta of superiority for a given technique over stock removal.......
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Mike,

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Of all the regulars on BladeForums, you need to spend less time posting and more time knifemaking.

You are good at knifemaking, someday, you might even be considered great!

Your posts frequently come across clear as mud, and you get everyone pissed off at you. That is not good for anyone.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I make it of vasco wear. In one year, they dressed over 135 head of dear 12 or so neal-gi. Numerous wild boar, and when sent in for sharpening, there were still spots on the blade that would shave. How's that. What steel was it? Vasco Wear, put into service at 66-68 RC. It is so tough that it is used for the locking detent on the 747 that carry the Space Shuttle, and for the input shafts for Top Fuel, Dragsters, and Funny cars. Mike
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Vascowear is great for skinning knives, but like you said, it really has to be sharpened on power equipment. Thats too bad!

Mike, you build great Loveless knives, thats for sure. No reason to defend them constantly. However, there are many misguided people here who actually want knives that bend instead of break, knives that can be sharpened in the field, and knives with flat ground blades that offer the best overall edge geometry (you know, like all those ICCT cutters).
Some of us fools actually prefer hand rubbed, satin finish blades to high polishes created by the finest in buffing technology.

A lot of this is about preference. Thats why they make micarta in so many colors..
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
I prefer custom folding knives, especially tactical ones to have CNC'd components so when wear occurs or parts need to be replaced (Which will happen if you actually use a folder hard) it can be done with a minimum of muss and fuss. I find folders made with CNC technology to have better precision in general, which is paramount when making folders.

At any rate, this is a great discussion that comes up perennially and I have come to the conclusion that I am a bit less concerned about the route taken to make a knife and more concerned with the final product. I also still see many CNC'd knives with poor fit and finish, so it certainly isn't a panacea.
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CNC has several great advantages when it comes to making designs that work better and are more balanced and flow well.
The disadvantages are .... CRAP IN CRAP OUT and education the buying public about the process that is required to make anything with a CNC machine.

There is many hours of hand work involved in making GOOD CUSTOM knives CNC machined or not.
 
I think different people have different ideas about custom and handmade knives. I agree with the earlier post that "custom" is often misused as a general term to describe handmade knives.

If I am buying a handmade knife there are several factors that I consider. Largely I am buying the design and/or a particular style of the knifemaker. A lot of makers make knives based on popular designs such as Scagel or Loveless but each will have the makers own influences and style. Mostly I am buying the craftsmanship and quality. These can mean different things depending on the purpose of the knife. I would have diifernt criteria for buying an art knife than I would for buying a skinner. Each requires it's own level of craftmanship and skill.

As for CNC; I don't care if the blade blanks or individual componets are cut by CNC. I would jump on a CNC machine in a minute if I could afford one. Standing at a bandsaw cutting blanks is very tedious work. If you are making folders where you need standardized pieces that must fit precisely CNC makes a lot of sense. I am not saying that precision fit cannot be done by hand but if you have to make the same pieces over and over to exact tolerances CNC seems like the way to go.

However, I think the grind is one of the things that makes a handmade knife what it is and the skill of hand grinding is a huge part of what a handmade is all about. If the bevels and/or grinds are done automatically by a machine, in my opinion it is not really a handmade knife.

For me, when I buy a handmade knife I expect the blade to be ground and finished by hand by the maker whose name is on the knife. Likewise I expect the handle, fit and finish to be done by hand by the maker. In my opinion that is what makes the knife unique and demostrates the skill and talent of the maker. I learned (and I am still learning) knifemaking from Gil Hibben. One of the things that most impresses me about Gil's work is his skill in freehand grinding. It's one thing to get a perfectly straight and even grind line using a jig but entirely another level of skill to sit down at a grinder and do it freehand. Gil has no CNC machines in his shop but I don't think it would lessen the appeal of his handmade knives if he did utilize them for some of the steps such as cutting blanks.

Heat treating is a critical component of any working knife but I don't really care if the maker does it in house or sends it out as long as it is done correctly. I think any reputable maker is going to make sure the heat treat is right regardless of who does it or it will quickly come back to haunt him. In fact, much of the same arguments can be made for heat treating as for CNC milling. Aren't most modern kilns computer controlled to achieve specific temperatures and soak for a programmed amount of time? Is that any more or less handmade than judging temperature by color or testing with a magnet?

Technology will continue to advance and knifemakers will continue to embace and utilize new technology in their work. I think the lines between handmade and production knives will continually get harder to define. As a photographer I see much of the same dilema with the transition to digital photgraphy. More and more of the photos we see are computer enhanced and manipulated but the result is still unique based on the skill and artistic influence of the author.
 
Believe it or not Anthony, Vasco wear isn't hard to sharpen at all if you use diamond hones. This is all I use for the most part for users any way. Gives that toothy edge that really performs in the field. If it takes 50lbs of force to bend a knife, as apposed to 200 lbs to break it, I'll take the 200 lb killer blade thank you. No one bothers to tell anyone at which point the knife failed. If a knife with an edge hard enough to really hold an edge can bend at a low Lb. the edge will crack. I hate to tell you this. But it just failed. Lastly, Best over all edge geometry. Bull crap. For an ax, or a knife to be used as one. I don't make axes. They are at sears, Lowe's, home depot. I see no reason to make them. Not even in the shape of a knife. Try skinning a few dozen head of game with one of them, and try resharpening a few times by hand. The Moran edge will become blunt very quickly in the real world. Just from a very few sharpenings. It will be a chisel in no time. And that my friend does indeed require a slack belt to get it back to being able to be sharpened. When is the last time you saw some one in the woods with a slack belt grinder in they're back pocket? None of this is being said to inflame any one. But lets put the cutting competition into prespective. Edges, and indeed knives hav many different reasons for being. A chopping blade has its place. As does the edge geometry. A fine cutting edge, and a light blade has its place. I would no mor want to use a finely ground pocket blade for clearing brush, than I would want a surgeon operating on me using a chopping knife. There is no such thing as best over all blade geometry. Just best suited to the task it is intended for.
 
Hi Bailey. I'm not talking about you or anyone in particular. It's just a recurring theme I hear at shows a lot. Mostly form customers. I hear it a lot! U have been ask many times why I don't step up to the next level and forge. I usually just smile and leave it at that. It doesn't matter that I started forging over 30 years ago. I don't consider it the next level. As far as I'm concerned, it is all on a level playing field. If one or the other method was truly inferior, none of us would be doing it the way we do. but like I pointed out earlier. As a stock removal maker, I am not even allowed to mention it. If I were Smith, there would have been no negative remarks directed to me what so ever. This is the part I don't under stand. Why can't both methods have an opinion. OK Steven, I'm headed out to the shop now. Haa! MIke
 
The Moran edge will become blunt very quickly in the real world. Just from a very few sharpenings. It will be a chisel in no time. And that my friend does indeed require a slack belt to get it back to being able to be sharpened. When is the last time you saw some one in the woods with a slack belt grinder in they're back pocket? None of this is being said to inflame any one. But lets put the cutting competition into prespective. Edges, and indeed knives hav many different reasons for being. A chopping blade has its place. As does the edge geometry. A fine cutting edge, and a light blade has its place. I would no mor want to use a finely ground pocket blade for clearing brush, than I would want a surgeon operating on me using a chopping knife. There is no such thing as best over all blade geometry. Just best suited to the task it is intended for.
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Ever use a kitchen knife? All of the good ones are flat ground, some to convex, some to bevel. None I have used ever became a club after use.


You assume that all forged knives have a heavy convex edge? Why?

In my experience, most makers of hollow ground knives have edge bevels that are too blunt for fine work and too short of a hollow to be an efficient slicer. Even though the edge is what cuts, the side of the blade adds friction and a big grind line adds it big time. Another reason you rarerly see a hollow ground kitchen knife and also the reason for the granton edge.

I think there is room for hollow grinding, especially in hunters, folders or blades designed for piercing, but I have never seen a Loveless design that was worth a hoot as a chopper or slicer while many larger flatground knives can do it all in a pinch.

I have never seen one cut the free hanging rope either, but I am sure you consider that a Jedi parlor trick..

Thanks for the info on Vasco wear. I actually prefer Talonite/Stellite for skinning knives, but again thats just preference. I am not married to the concept of forged carbon steel for every task, just for the bigger ones..
 
And Mike, I appreciate your defense of the polished, shiny knives.
They are going strong here in Herron-land where Mr. George's acolytes turn them out in mass quantities.

The gun/knife shows here have table after table of hollow ground, high polished beauties that all look the same except for the makers marks and varying degrees of proficiency. They still use a lot of 440-C too.
 
mlovett said:
If I were Smith, there would have been no negative remarks directed to me what so ever. This is the part I don't under stand. Why can't both methods have an opinion. OK Steven, I'm headed out to the shop now. Haa! MIke
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Riiiight. :rolleyes: Mike, next time you see bladesmith come on the forums and start slagging stock removal makers as a bunch of snake-oil selling blowhards you be sure to point it out, okay? As for a stock removal maker slagging bladesmiths - well, I guess we'll just wait for the next post or three from you. You make fine knives Mike. I just sure hope nobody ever puts you in charge of world peace.

Roger
 
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