Cold Steel Recon Tanto

[Phil Elmore]

I have never heard so much jail house lawyer crap in all my life.
No to mention all the down right either lies, or ignorance coming through.

Just a few.

Strider Stamped blades. BS. Strider blades are not stamped out! Water jet, or laser cut. Yes. Big difference. The Steels we use cannot be stamped out. Just more assumptions being given as fact by people who have no idea in hell what they are talking about.

The accusations toward Mick Strider have never been substantiated that I have seen.

LT just saw another knife to rip off and used his accusations to draw attention away from his own unethical behavior.

LT has never been shown to be unethical,.??? He has been shown to be unethical for decades. Where in the world have you been? There is no where deep enough for you to stick your head in the sand to have missed it all.

LT invented the tanto. No he didn't. It has been around for centuries.

LT invented the americanized tanto. No he didn't. Bob Lum did.

LT popularized the Tanto. No he didn't. He was behind by a decade or two. And that was here in the us. As I already pointed out, it was popular for centuries before anyone ever heard of LT. All you have to do is go through to old Knives digest books, and you will see that they were very hot before LT ever thought of bringing them out.
I remember the Boot Knife craze years ago. Next the Tanto craze. Then came the Liner Lock, Frame Lock, and Tactical. Lt didn't invent or popularize any of them. He only followed and copied. Like a good little money grubber.

Why don't people sue. Hell, I personally knew Harvey Mcburnette, and the other tow fellows who developed the forward lock. WT Fuller, and Dick Dorough. They sent the pattern and design to Gerber. kershaw and Al Mar both worked for Gerber. Gerber didn't produce the knives But Both Kershaw, and Mar did when they left Gerber. The three fellows who developed the knives sued. It took 25 years to settle. TWENTY FIVE YEARS!!!

I could fill a book of such stories. But you already know that. Not to mention it cost them more than they had. and years of effort that would have been better spent making knives. Just not worth it. But they did get paid. Finally.

All about Money. Half right. Once again, the jail house lawyers have all the answers. Without knowing much of anything about the Custom Knife Business.
We are small one man shops. We can't afford to sue. Hell we're lucky to eat! And now lawyers usually won't take such cases on contingency for a one man operation against a large corporation. Oh, wait. Some one earlier said that CS wasn't a large company. but just a post or two above, it was pointed out that they were! which way fits best for all the augments here. Pick which either one fits your arguments at the moment.

Yes it is all a bout the money for LT. And every one knows it. For the Custom Maker it isn't'. I've never known a single Custom Maker worth a crap that went into the business to make a killing. Right the opposite. A lot of spouses give the makers a hard time. A lot of divorces over the business. You see, we do it because we love Knives. We love them so much that we just have to make them ourselves. All of you experts that have bought a few knives over the years know so much more than any of us. I mean what the hell do we know. We only use them. Collect them. Buy them. Design them, and make them. That is why we are so unqualified to know what the hell is going on in knives today. You learn so much more at the counter at wal-mart.
We put more research into a given steel for a given design that most of you will ever understand. Yet you know so much better. We live in the world of knives with sharks like LT every day. We don't just buy one every once in a while and think we know everything there is to know!

So why does it bother us if it's not the money? To us, our Knives are like our children. We know each and every one we have ever make.
When one leaves we wish it only good for all its' life. When one makes a hit, we are like proud parents at the Friday night game. When one is ripped off, it feels like one of our children have been kidnapped. Something of our soul has been ripped out. You, the user, purchaser, collector can never in a million years know what it feels like to sweat and toil for lousy wages, trying to make your mark just to have some one tell the world that they did all the work. They gave that knife a life. Knowing all the time that they had nothing to do with it what so ever other than lie!

And you set here and say that we don't even have the to say nothing about it?
LT and others like him have every right in the world to steal our creations. Lie to the world to make a profit, and yet you tell us we have no right to even so much as let it bother us. We are to keep out mouths shut completely. well I for one am not a member of the sheeple race. What gives you the right to tell anyone that aren't allowed to say what is on their mind. To tell the truth. this is an open forum buddy. If you don't like other people exercising their rights, too bad. You sure don't seem to have a problem telling others what they can and cannot do. One would get more satisfaction talking to a brick wall. You just don't' get it. Slime is Slime no matter how much you love his rip offs.

We don't' want his money. Wouldn't have it if it was offered. but it would have been nice if he had had the common decency to say, you know, I like this. I think it will be popular. Mind if I make a few and see what they do?

Thats all we want. For our work to succeed. For our knives to be popular and appreciated. And if at all possible, if they are, for the world to know that they are out children. Fruits or our minds. Our labors. Is that so much to ask for the artist that creates the art. If you put a fine painting into your copying machine, is it still not a fine piece of art? Is it now the work of the copying machine? Is a print, a fake, a counter fit the same as the original? I think not. And now we are being told that it all OK because it is cheaper! Tell the Mint That. Tell Rolex that. He a lier and a cheat, and if yo can't understand what these thing mean, then as far as I'm concerned, Your a complete Moron.

Or do you understand? Ii really don't think anyone here is that stupid. But I could be wrong.

Just wondering!

Are you saying that we can either agree with you, or we're stupid? That doesn't seem like a fair set of choices.

 

[chuckschilling]

I have never heard so much jail house lawyer crap in all my life.
No to mention all the down right either lies, or ignorance coming through.

Just a few.

Strider Stamped blades. BS. Strider blades are not stamped out! Water jet, or laser cut. Yes. Big difference. The Steels we use cannot be stamped out. Just more assumptions being given as fact by people who have no idea in hell what they are talking about.

The accusations toward Mick Strider have never been substantiated that I have seen.

LT just saw another knife to rip off and used his accusations to draw attention away from his own unethical behavior.

LT has never been shown to be unethical,.??? He has been shown to be unethical for decades. Where in the world have you been? There is no where deep enough for you to stick your head in the sand to have missed it all.

LT invented the tanto. No he didn't. It has been around for centuries.

LT invented the americanized tanto. No he didn't. Bob Lum did.

LT popularized the Tanto. No he didn't. He was behind by a decade or two. And that was here in the us. As I already pointed out, it was popular for centuries before anyone ever heard of LT. All you have to do is go through to old Knives digest books, and you will see that they were very hot before LT ever thought of bringing them out.
I remember the Boot Knife craze years ago. Next the Tanto craze. Then came the Liner Lock, Frame Lock, and Tactical. Lt didn't invent or popularize any of them. He only followed and copied. Like a good little money grubber.

Why don't people sue. Hell, I personally knew Harvey Mcburnette, and the other tow fellows who developed the forward lock. WT Fuller, and Dick Dorough. They sent the pattern and design to Gerber. kershaw and Al Mar both worked for Gerber. Gerber didn't produce the knives But Both Kershaw, and Mar did when they left Gerber. The three fellows who developed the knives sued. It took 25 years to settle. TWENTY FIVE YEARS!!!

I could fill a book of such stories. But you already know that. Not to mention it cost them more than they had. and years of effort that would have been better spent making knives. Just not worth it. But they did get paid. Finally.

All about Money. Half right. Once again, the jail house lawyers have all the answers. Without knowing much of anything about the Custom Knife Business.
We are small one man shops. We can't afford to sue. Hell we're lucky to eat! And now lawyers usually won't take such cases on contingency for a one man operation against a large corporation. Oh, wait. Some one earlier said that CS wasn't a large company. but just a post or two above, it was pointed out that they were! which way fits best for all the augments here. Pick which either one fits your arguments at the moment.

Yes it is all a bout the money for LT. And every one knows it. For the Custom Maker it isn't'. I've never known a single Custom Maker worth a crap that went into the business to make a killing. Right the opposite. A lot of spouses give the makers a hard time. A lot of divorces over the business. You see, we do it because we love Knives. We love them so much that we just have to make them ourselves. All of you experts that have bought a few knives over the years know so much more than any of us. I mean what the hell do we know. We only use them. Collect them. Buy them. Design them, and make them. That is why we are so unqualified to know what the hell is going on in knives today. You learn so much more at the counter at wal-mart.
We put more research into a given steel for a given design that most of you will ever understand. Yet you know so much better. We live in the world of knives with sharks like LT every day. We don't just buy one every once in a while and think we know everything there is to know!

So why does it bother us if it's not the money? To us, our Knives are like our children. We know each and every one we have ever make.
When one leaves we wish it only good for all its' life. When one makes a hit, we are like proud parents at the Friday night game. When one is ripped off, it feels like one of our children have been kidnapped. Something of our soul has been ripped out. You, the user, purchaser, collector can never in a million years know what it feels like to sweat and toil for lousy wages, trying to make your mark just to have some one tell the world that they did all the work. They gave that knife a life. Knowing all the time that they had nothing to do with it what so ever other than lie!

And you set here and say that we don't even have the to say nothing about it?
LT and others like him have every right in the world to steal our creations. Lie to the world to make a profit, and yet you tell us we have no right to even so much as let it bother us. We are to keep out mouths shut completely. well I for one am not a member of the sheeple race. What gives you the right to tell anyone that aren't allowed to say what is on their mind. To tell the truth. this is an open forum buddy. If you don't like other people exercising their rights, too bad. You sure don't seem to have a problem telling others what they can and cannot do. One would get more satisfaction talking to a brick wall. You just don't' get it. Slime is Slime no matter how much you love his rip offs.

We don't' want his money. Wouldn't have it if it was offered. but it would have been nice if he had had the common decency to say, you know, I like this. I think it will be popular. Mind if I make a few and see what they do?

Thats all we want. For our work to succeed. For our knives to be popular and appreciated. And if at all possible, if they are, for the world to know that they are out children. Fruits or our minds. Our labors. Is that so much to ask for the artist that creates the art. If you put a fine painting into your copying machine, is it still not a fine piece of art? Is it now the work of the copying machine? Is a print, a fake, a counter fit the same as the original? I think not. And now we are being told that it all OK because it is cheaper! Tell the Mint That. Tell Rolex that. He a lier and a cheat, and if yo can't understand what these thing mean, then as far as I'm concerned, Your a complete Moron.

Or do you understand? Ii really don't think anyone here is that stupid. But I could be wrong.

Just wondering!

Nice. That's a terrific way to represent yourself and your company to folks who might otherwise be interested in buying a knife or two from you down the road. Given the manner with which you treat others with whom you disagree, I wouldn't buy so much as a pair of tweezers from you. There are plenty of other custom knife makers out there who will treat their customers (and potential customers) with respect and courtesy, regardless of whether they agree with them or not.

 

[Kiah]

Of course, CS has ripped off the Wave as well, on their AK47 and now the Rajah and Spanish series knives. (Is Emerson suing? I dunno.)

I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I wanna comment on this real quick. The opener used on the AK-47 is a different design than the Emerson. It is removable for one. The guy who made it holds the patent on it, and Cold Steel pays him to use it.

 

[Kiah]

I have never heard so much jail house lawyer crap in all my life.

You've obviously not visited our esteemed PracTac forum.

The accusations toward Mick Strider have never been substantiated that I have seen.

Mick has admitted to the accusations privately and to a court of law. Dwayne has remained silent on his accusations, I believe.

LT has never been shown to be unethical,.??? He has been shown to be unethical for decades. Where in the world have you been? There is no where deep enough for you to stick your head in the sand to have missed it all.

Don't know if this was directed at me or who? I believe he has certainly done unethical things. He's certainly not at the top of the list though.

LT invented the tanto. No he didn't. It has been around for centuries.

LT invented the americanized tanto. No he didn't. Bob Lum did.

Who said he did? I mean besides himself obviously.

LT popularized the Tanto. No he didn't. He was behind by a decade or two. And that was here in the us. As I already pointed out, it was popular for centuries before anyone ever heard of LT. All you have to do is go through to old Knives digest books, and you will see that they were very hot before LT ever thought of bringing them out.

Ah, so in what way again is the Recon Tanto a copy of your knife? Couldn't Thompson have been drawing on the centuries of previous tanto design, or even on his own product?

I remember the Boot Knife craze years ago. Next the Tanto craze. Then came the Liner Lock, Frame Lock, and Tactical. Lt didn't invent or popularize any of them. He only followed and copied. Like a good little money grubber.

Now we're just being silly. Cold Steel is not the only company using tanto blades, liner locks, frame locks, and tactical design. Are the other companies using these things also money grubbers?

And you set here and say that we don't even have the to say nothing about it?

Who here said you didn't have the right to say what you want? I'm all for open discussion. You must understand though, the rest of us have the right to speak our minds too.

LT and others like him have every right in the world to steal our creations. Lie to the world to make a profit, and yet you tell us we have no right to even so much as let it bother us. We are to keep out mouths shut completely. well I for one am not a member of the sheeple race. What gives you the right to tell anyone that aren't allowed to say what is on their mind. To tell the truth. this is an open forum buddy. If you don't like other people exercising their rights, too bad. You sure don't seem to have a problem telling others what they can and cannot do. One would get more satisfaction talking to a brick wall. You just don't' get it. Slime is Slime no matter how much you love his rip offs.

Now, who was this directed at? You should really consider addressing the intended recipient in some way. Otherwise it could get quite confusing.

and if yo can't understand what these thing mean, then as far as I'm concerned, Your a complete Moron.

Eh, I've been called worse.

Or do you understand? Ii really don't think anyone here is that stupid. But I could be wrong.

Well, of course, you're wrong. There's quite a few stupid people here. Hang out in the political forum for a bit, you'll think the rest of us are Mensa members.

As far as design copy from Cold Steel. Obviously they've done it a bit. I'm not an expert on their knives, but here are a few that I've read.

AK-47 rips off Emerson Wave - As I said before. The opener on the AK-47 is patended, and CS pays royalties.

Black Sable rips off Tighe Stick - The blades on the Black Sable and the early Tighe Stick are very close. The grind is different, but overall shape is almost exact. CS has stated that the Sable's blade was a result of putting a tanto point on a Scimitar. I doubt that, but I guess anythings possible. The locks are different. The handles are completely different.

GI Tanto rips off Strider - This one is obvious. The ad-copy even states it. Like I said, I believe it was done on purpose just to piss Strider off.

Recon-1's lock rips off Benchmade - If I'm not mistaken, CS pays (or paid) royalties to Benchmade to use the Axis lock. I think early Cold Steels with this lock were said to have stated such on the box.

Pocket bushman rips off Sebenza - I've seen this one, and it's just stupid. The knives are different in every way. They don't share any features.

Recon Tanto rips off Lovvet Tanto - I don't see this one at all. As you've stated, the tanto design has been around for centuries, and CS itself made tantos before yours. There is no resemblance other than a tanto point on a mid-size blade.

There are not that many original designs. I seem to be noticing Benchmades looking more and more like Spydercos lately. Does Benchmade get the same stigma as CS? The closest thing I see anymore to original designs are Frost Cutlery's "custom bowies". Should we be supporting them instead?

 

[3Guardsmen]

Very well stated, Kiahs!:thumbup:

Regards,
3G

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

It's a little silly to imply that people who buy cold steel knives are either stupid or not ethical. I am in my 60's and have been a knife nut for decades. However until I joined this forum, I had never heard of any of the custom makers you guys talk about or even LT. Most knife buyers have no idea of any of this earth shaking information. Like I was and still am, If I see a knife that I like and can afford it, I buy it. IMO 90 percent of the knives sold are in this category.

when you unknowingly buy a rip off, that is not unethical- it is ignorance.

When you knowingly buy a rip off then it is unethical. Of course ethics by definition is a spectrum of values ranging from good to bad. . . so LT has ethics, his word long and brain short supporters have ethics, they just are on the fertilizer end of the ethics spectrum.

 

[udtjim]

Most people wouldn't know if something was a rip off or not. I bought a lot of CS knives before i ever heard of LT or had any idea that they were rip offs Only a few people would have any idea. Before I bought a knife I never did any research to see if it was a rip off. 90 percent of this whole subject is just a matter of opinion or pure speculation. OH and don't forget. Politics.

 

[Tblock1]

When I think of rip-off I think of a crappy chinese copy for $3. I wouldn't think of rip-off as a copy of the design with some good quality like cold steels. A rip-off is an exact copy that is generally much cheaper than the original.

 

[Confederate]

When you knowingly buy a rip off then it is unethical.

I wish we had someone who taught ethics, or was an authority on it in some way, as many of these issues are much more complicated, and in many ways less, than is being portrayed.

I wonder, for example, if it's unethical to buy any knife from a guy who rips off other knife designs, or should we avoid all of his knives? And how should ethics be realistically applied in a situation where the rip off person doesn't cost the designer a cent? Opinions are like...well, you know, and everyone has one. We've now got pages of opinions (many of them heated), without any real discussion based on actual philosophy.

You know, I admit I'm ignorant about how knives are made and what goes into them, but hell, I'm ignorant about a lot of things. We've talked a great deal about Strider's combat tanto, but ultimately, regardless of how it's made, it's performance doesn't appear to be radically different from LT's twenty-dollar G.I. Tanto. I'm not an ethics instructor, nor do I play one on TV, but I've rarely seen such strong feelings expressed on any forum, including political and theological forums. But speaking of theological forums, I can't help but wonder if God will throw people who rip off designs into the ol' eternal poky...fire and brimstone. Many of the biblical concepts of right and wrong tend to center around someone doing something at the expense at someone else in a basic monetary (or trade) sense.

The Law of Moses, for example, did not cover theft of ideas; rather, only if what Person A did was at the expense of what Person B did and, if so, how much and what the compensation should be. Ethics is a more philosophic question. If one looks at Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Eastern religions, you just don't find anything that would address the issue at hand. Up until fairly recently (just the last 150 years), attribution wasn't all that important.

Bottom line: people can have varying views about this and not necessarily be either right or wrong.

 

[Th232]

The Law of Moses, for example, did not cover theft of ideas; rather, only if what Person A did was at the expense of what Person B did and, if so, how much and what the compensation should be.

Person B puts a lot of time, effort, and probably some money into making a design. Person A then just takes that idea without crediting person B or paying any royalties (ever done work and then had it stolen, or nor been paid for it?), then makes their own copies, thus taking market share (read: revenue) away from person B. I fail to see how this isn't at person B's expense.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Then person B should sue or shut the hell up.

 

[enderwiggin]

Then person B should sue or shut the hell up.

I think that depends highly on the funding Person B is ready to spend on Lawyers vs. the size of Person A's Legal Team.

 

[Phil Elmore]

A theft is a theft. If there's a case to be had, there are always lawyers willing to take the case for a cut.

 

[udtjim]

Besides the ehtics question, it there any real evidence that one product is a rip off of another? How much is fact and how much is just a matter of one opinion VS another? All knives with a blade and a handle are simular with all the pictures shown here, I can see some resemblance but no real rip offs. To me they just both look like Tanto's.

 

[chuckschilling]

Person B puts a lot of time, effort, and probably some money into making a design. Person A then just takes that idea without crediting person B or paying any royalties (ever done work and then had it stolen, or nor been paid for it?), then makes their own copies, thus taking market share (read: revenue) away from person B. I fail to see how this isn't at person B's expense.

If Person B fails to secure the necessary patents, trademarks and copyrights to protect his intellectual property, or fails to enforce said patents, trademarks and copyrights, then he deserves to have his intellectual property expropriated. It's pretty simple, really.

Have any of the asshurt in this thread who claim that Cold Steel "stole" their designs demonstrated that, in fact, the appropriate patents, trademarks and copyrights were properly filed and enforced, then subsequently abrogated by Cold Steel? Nope. Nary a one. Please bear in mind that patent rights are enforced via litigation, not knife fan message boards.

I hate whiners, and several of the anti-Cold Steel crowd are the biggest whiners and crybabies I've ever encountered.

 

[chuckschilling]

I think that depends highly on the funding Person B is ready to spend on Lawyers vs. the size of Person A's Legal Team.

Well, there you go. Must not be that valuable to Person B then.

 

[Tblock1]

If Person B is really hurt they will go kick some a** and take names later. If not, then they are simply just whining away getting nothing accomplished.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Why is it that the ethically unsound always try so desperately to rationalize their lack of character? Maybe a tiny shred of conscience flaring up?

QUICK! Drown it out with bluster and hyperbole!

 

[Tony_A]

Why is it that the ethically unsound always try so desperately to rationalize their lack of character? Maybe a tiny shred of conscience flaring up?

QUICK! Drown it out with bluster and hyperbole!

The ethically unsound don't understand that just because something is "legal" it can still be the wrong thing to do.

To them, if it's legal, then it's OK.

 

[Kiah]

QUICK! Drown it out with bluster and hyperbole!