Cold Steel vs Busse

I don't think anyone would ask that question, if he was looking for folders. The assumption that we are talking about fixed blades is IMHO valid.
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I said what I said to draw people's attention to the fact that old Steel and Busse knives have a very different product line. In my opinion, only a small portion of Cold Steel and Busse knives have any overlap, where you'd actually have to stop and decide between which company you need to go with.

In addition, the original question asked is quite vague, and it isn't fair to simply assume the poster was asking about trailmaster vs. Battle Mistress. A search of the forums would reveal that many forumites (mostly newer members, but many long time posters too) post vague questions when asking about knives, exactly liek the oen posted. I often see "Hi, I want a new knife. Which oen should I get?" Then 5 people will post, asking the usual important question, such as what will you be doing with the knife, how much money do you want to spend, etc.
 
King Grinch :

treat your knives like your other lidesaving equip. and take care of them. Do this and your chances of breaking are minimal...
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Any knife will not break unless you exceed its abilities. With enough care, skill , and knowledge you can indeed use any knife to do any task. However some knives are more functional for certain types of tasks than others. Thus you have to do less work with them (effort or time), and/or endure less fatigue. It also means that some knives will be functional for a much broader user base, as they have much greater tolerances for user ability and knowledge. What might be perfectly obvious to you, might not be at all apparent to someone else, and consider how similar the knives are promoted.

How significant this difference is depends on how the knife is used, the main factors being extent of work, and its difficulty. Chopping through a 3" piece of alder will leave you with not much of an impression of the advantage of the BM over the Trailmaster for example. But when the same knives are used on thicker and denser wood, and this is repeated, differences become obvious. The same goes for any task, not just chopping wood. Any knife can peel a potato, however peel 50 or 60 and you will be reaching for a paring knife quite quickly.

I would be interested to know on what are you are basing the idea that a Rinaldi or Siegle is superior to the Combat line, and in what way.

The Busse Combat line is at a significantly high price than the Cold Steel though so you would expect a clear performance jump. The Swamp Rat line is much closer so more straightforward comparisions can be drawn there. Some Cold Steel blades, as Crayola pointed out don't have Busse counterparts, for example like x-large Tantos or the thinner and more cutting oriented blades. Though Busse has started producing blades along those lines as of late.

-Cliff
 
I come up with the same response (in my head at least :D ):

Buy an 18" machete with a US military sheath and a nice 4" to 5" Marbles or other really good cutter.

Then there is no compromise at all, I've got a proven chopper that will take down a 6" tree if necessary, and a knife that will easily skin a baby rabbit or remove a splinter from my hand.

I wouldn't go 'out in the woods' without this combo.

Oh, and I could afford a really nice SAK, and a stylish hat to go with it :D

But of course it matters where you go, who you are, and what you do when you get there. If I were a true SF member...my priorities would change in a hurry....but for a solid all around kit that I can and do depend on for my forays into the great swamps of South Jersey? Heres mine:

Basic Kit:

18" Ontario Mil-Spec machete $16.00
Military Surplus sheath $20.00
Greco Drop-Point Dangler $55.00
SAK Hiker $22.46
Gerber old style multi-plier $30.00
Small pocket hone $10.00
6" flat bastard file $8.00
(1) Tuf-Cloth $6.00
.45 Cal. canvas magazine pouch $0

Total: $167.46
Whole lotta bang for the buck there...
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
King Grinch :


.

I would be interested to know on what are you are basing the idea that a Rinaldi or Siegle is superior to the Combat line, and in what way.


-Cliff
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The Rinaldi and Siegle are works of art. They are handmade and give more pride of ownership. You can probably specify what steel and grind type you want them in. They will hold their value longer. How strong is INFI compared to CPM steels(non stainless). For use around water(esp salt) How well do Busses hold up against Talonite?
 
Mongrel - I've tramped a few South Jersey swamps myself. Whereabouts you from? BTW, the only thing I ever carried was a small camp hatchet, Old Timer folder, and a stacked leather handle fixed blade with a 4 inch blade. Never needed anything else. Course I now own a few Busse's, among others so I might see it different upon my return in August. :)
 
Originally posted by Brent VanZanen
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The Busse crowd are the only people I ever see putting down quality knives by other makers. Knocking a Rinaldi or Siegle is just ridiculous.
JMHO - either you misread or misunderstood something in this thread. Which part of which message was knocking Rinaldi or Siegle? Just because the question was asked?
 
Originally posted by Mongrel

18" Ontario Mil-Spec machete $16.00
Military Surplus sheath $20.00
Greco Drop-Point Dangler $55.00
SAK Hiker $22.46
Gerber old style multi-plier $30.00
Small pocket hone $10.00
6" flat bastard file $8.00
(1) Tuf-Cloth $6.00
.45 Cal. canvas magazine pouch $0
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Look on the airport security guard's face: priceless!

RL
 
HEHEH..."look on airport security's face-priceless"-thanks for the good laugh RL! :D :D :D

SteelEd-Ever hear of Bearhead Swamp, Lake Oswego, Batsto Village, Carranza Memorial...etc. etc. etc.? Southern Burlington County-Medford Area? :D

I don't always NEED all of that stuff, but I can do most anything with it. Now if we could eat the fish in the Pine Barrens (high mercury counts-so says the state), I would add a nice filet knife.

General thanks to all for not flaming my non-Busse\Cold Steel content in my post! :)

Someday I'm sure I'll have to get a Busse.

Mongrel
 
I like the Trail Master vs Basic 9. Its a damn shame the Basic 9 is no longer available! Hmmmm, Why is it? I would love a Basic 5, I guess its to late. I would like a 4.5 / 5 inch Tanto made by Busse. I think if Busse could duplicate a Cold Steel Tanto using the resiprene handle I'm sure people would buy! I know several would have my name on them! :)
 
King Grinch :

How strong is INFI compared to CPM steels(non stainless).
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CPM-3V is also very tough, ductile with a high wear resistance. It would be a very solid choice for the types of blades that Busse generally makes, I have a custom ordered in it.

[water]

How well do Busses hold up against Talonite?
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Directly better unless you are soaking them for hours in salt water (this advantage isn't limited to INFI). Talonite is weaker so the blade as a whole is less durable, and the edge retention poorer as the edge rolls/dents easier.

As for a large machete, there is a pretty big compromise in performance on thick wood. Yes you can chop through a piece of spruce with an 18" ontario machete, however it will be much faster and easier with a properly ground blade with a primary grind. There are large blades which are ground for wood cutting of course, bolos/parangs/barongs/goloks etc. as well as quality hatchets and saws .

-Cliff
 
I don't quite understand what you mean Cliff. But I do know this:

I can out cut\chop usually 2 strokes to 1, any large bladed 'knife' I own with my machtete-PERIOD.

I don't know what the grind of the machete is-it gets dull I file it. I compared it head to head with a brand new shaving sharp Entrek Destroyer (9" long,1/4", 440C)over an 8 hour period. The Destroyer could not touch the Ontario in cutting\chopping efficiency, or comfort. Now I realize that the Destroyer is no 'Busse'. But I don't consider it a piece of junk either.

While comparing these two, I also took time to put a Greco MST through its paces also. This is a 1/4" carbon steel basically 5" blade on a 12" knife. The mst is no piece of junk either.

Both of the above 'knives' were easily out-cut 2 to 1 by the Ontario. The Ontario was more comfortable in the hand-the other two hurt like hell after a couple of hours. Saplings and branches that were cut easily with one or two swings with the Ontario took up to 10 to 20 chops with the other blades.

So what was I chopping all day? Pine? No, actually there was: Pine, Oak, Buttonwood, Dogwood, Spruce, Maple, Holly, Sassafras, Green Briars, long grass, and Ferns. Honest, all green and all found in my father inlaws back yard.

Here is the bottom line for me:

When the call goes out, or the desire to go out 'there' hits me-I WILL GRAB THAT ONTARIO OVER THESE OTHER TWO KNIVES EVERYTIME-

It is tested, it is true, it is easy, it cuts like a real SOB (and yes I've taken down a six inch green maple with it NP), it is lightweight, easy to carry, easy to sharpen etc. etc. etc. I have had it for 15 years and it has not 'chipped out' or broken yet.

From my point of view and experience:

I don't think there is a more VERSATILE blade available that will do as many things as well as a full-sized machete type blade. Most of the heavy chopping knives are just short & fat little machetes anyway-just look at the design. I prefer to have the thinner longer blade of a 'real machete': For my money, it is the best I have...

;)

Mongrel
 
Mongrel :

I prefer to have the thinner longer blade of a 'real machete'
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Traditional machetes, meaning stamped blades with no primary grinds are actually far thicker than wood working blades behind the edge. Yes the spine is thicker, but you don't cut with the spine. A 1/4" blade with a full grind will be thinner than a machete for more than half its width, and this difference is significant as the force is concentrated at the edge and drops off quickly. An 1/8" machete is 1/8" (0.125") thick right behind the edge because it has no primary grind. A wood working blade will be up to 0.020" behind the edge, up to six times thinner at the edge where the force is concentrated. Yes there are blades that don't cut wood very well because of obtuse primary grinds and edges, this doesn't make them junk, it just means they are optomized for different usage.

The reason why machetes tend to get viewed as such high performace wood cutters is because they are often compared to "tactical" knives which generally have shallow sabre grinds, and very obtuse and thick edges, 20-30 degrees per side. From the picture of the Entrek Destroyer (1sks), that seems to be the case for that blade. Yes, these will be readily out cut by the machete, but this isn't a wood working blade to wood working blade comparison. Get a blade made with a primary grind which is designed to cut wood (khukuri, golok, parang, bowie from various custom makers) and while the raw penetration will be close for both, in other aspects (vibration, binding, edge durability / retention etc.), the machete will be much lower.

Of course there is lots of vegetation in which these aspects are not significnt and the machete has no real drawbacks, except the traditional low RC. And for wood cutting of course technique plays a large part, perhaps you are simply very well suited to machete use. In particular, if your chopping style is very fast with little to no wrist drive, the longer machete will benefit heavily but the shorter bowie class blades will suffer as they can't match the speed and can benefit more for drive upon impact. Of course a parang of the same machete length can match its speed, and has all the advantages of a primary grind. You might want to look into the Valiant blades which have been getting some discussion on Knifeforms lately. However if you like the performance of the machete, then that is all that really matters for you.


-Cliff
 
Thanks for the reply, and for clearing up the 'primary grind' thing. Now that you have explained it I feel like an ass for not catching it the first time. I like the thin blade of the machete because it keeps it light and gives good momentum with little effort on the swing. As you pointed out my swing is probably just used to the machete and not the technique required to really get the most out of a shorter heavier blade. Also-I don't claim for one minute that the Ontario Mil-spec model is the BEST machete out there, only that it is the one I happen to have. I use it as an example of the category and not as the perfect specimen.

I really don't know what my technique is man. I just size up the branch or trunk and WHACK! Anything up to 2" usually goes down with one or two swipes (at least in the type of wood mentioned above).

Oak has pretty stringy bark, so while I can get through it fine if the machete is not good and sharp usually the bark hangs it up and requires a second shot.

anyway...

I always have fun with it anyway :)

Mongrel
 
Mongrel, I have found the same thing you have with machetes on green wood and soft dry pine, but when I switched to seasoned hardwood, the machete was very ineffecient compared to a hatchet. I did a brief wood chopping test in the Barteaux machete review I did a while back. Here's the link: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=207783
I suppose that a machete misght come in handy for swatting those teradactyl size Jersey swamp skeeters.:D
 
Originally posted by King Grinch
Busse are made by humans they can be broke. I might want to remind you that US special forces carried plenty of humble USAF pilot survival knives in Nam' and there were few complaints. That think was not made out of thick super steel....treat your knives like your other lidesaving equip. and take care of them. Do this and your chances of breaking are minimal...
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Yeah Everyone knows someone that served in war time and carried one of those pieces of crap. I wonder how many guys died with one of those in their hand? Ever think about that? If you can only have one knife get a Busse. Your entire response to my post was an excuse to purchase crap knives. As long as you take care of your crap knife it will do fine. You can't polish a piece of $hi+. I can go buy a $2.00 knife at the pawn shop and as long as I never take it out of the sheath it would be fine. I don't wanna have to worry about taking care of my knife. Now that doesn't mean I don't. But I like knowing I "Don't Have to" to keep it from failing. We buy these knives cause we like having nice things right. I mean otherwise if money was the big issue we'd carry a $20.00 axe for chopping and a $5.00 box cutter with blade replacements for slicing. But we like knowing that we have the best. Now not everyone can afford the best. That's a fact of life. But don't come down on those who can just because they have the best and know it. I'm not "Busse or nothing". I think Strider has the best folders right now. That may change soon. But performance is everything. Money can be replaced. Your knife only gets to fail once. And once is all it takes to die. Think about it. Never rest your life or safety on a weapon until you know how far you can trust it. I've tried to break my Battle Mistress. I can't. The thing just won't die.
 
Before you start criticizing my response, hear this:
Here is the reason why I think Cold Steel is better than Busse. It all comes down to “VALUE.” In terms of price and quality there really aren’t many knife makers that can beat Cold Steel. Especially in the area of fixed blades. This day and age with the current economic conditions everyone is looking to stretch their dollars. Another thing to understand is that human beings are naturally very visual. You can make a really nice knife, but if looks like a** what’s the point. It kind of like who would rather be with; Pamela Anderson (Cold Steel) or Martha Stewart (Busse). It’s really hard to pull out a Busse knife and get the “wow factor,” on the other hand you pull out a Cold Steel Trail Master and the “wow factor” is pretty much a guarantee. The slight performance advantage (if there is any) that busse has is completely nullified by the whole value and design factor. In coclusion… It’s all about value people.
 
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