Cold Steel's Direction

shortwinger, way to completely miss the point and take things entirely too personally.:thumbup:
 
I am a fixed blade kind of person but I do like their folders too. And by way of disclosure, I am also a CS dealer. The military, LE and Tac guys love all their stuff. They want to use it, beat it up and still be in the fight and that is what they get. I honestly don't know of a single person that has one of their knives that doesn't love it. (not on this forum of course :-)

And of course there are better (different) steels out there but as one of the posts correctly pointed out, they are a business and have to produce what will sell. Even at dealer prices I don't have any personal San Mai blades. My personal CS knife is an SK5 Recon Scout and I love it. But I think it is hard to argue that a company that offers knives like the Recon Scout, SRK and others in affordable metals such as SK5 or Aus 8 and higher end metals like San Mai isn't listening to their customers. And I would also argue that CS has one of the highest profession user bases (military, LE & hunters) of any production company around besides companies like Ka-Bar/Becker. [another plain Jane kind of company that also has tons of steel carried on the side of working professionals]
 
Planterz said:
shortwinger, way to completely miss the point and take things entirely too personally.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

The mall music was too loud so I missed the point... (just kidding, couldn't resist)

I think I got the point. I just get frustrated when average people having fun with their knives get slammed for it. It would be different if people were getting ripped off or killed because their CS knives were breaking or failing all over the place. But the constant mall ninja bashing and the predictable 50 post pile-on gets old, thread after thread after thread. Any reasonable person would have to admit that the average CS knife is pretty darn good as a user. I can't speak as a collector because that is not what I do. I would think from that persective, they would be rather common. But to knock them as users?
 
It is what it is.

Way before the Tri-ad Lock came out (I'm talking back in the days when Cold Steel had the majority of their stuff made in Japan and bashed knives made in Taiwan and China in their publications), everyone who bought AUS-8 Voyagers and Vaqueros were quite satisfied with the blades and the lockback design employed by Cold Steel at that time. I still have one of their XL Voyagers in AUS-8 and it's still rock solid as the day I first bought it. It's no high-end super steel, but I personally have no complaints about AUS-8 steel as it holds a nice edge and it's not hard to sharpen. A super hard steel doesn't always mean it's better, in my book.

As to why Cold Steel is pushing their Tri-Ad lock over VG-1? Well, I can't speak for them personally, but Japan is still dealing with the aftermath of the worst earthquake in their history, so I can't blame them if rushing into their production of VG-1 blades is not a priority. Now, the Tri-Ad lock is Cold Steel's patent-pending baby, just as the Axis lock was to Benchmade. They've always hyped their knives as being the "strongest and toughest" so I find it only natural that they would want push the Tri-Ad lock over any new upgrade in steel for their folders.

Besides, if you frequent this forum enough it's likely that you already own enough knives to cut for several lifetimes, so complaining about why ONE particular maker has not pushed a higher grade steel over a locking mechanism is kind of pointless. But, things being as they are I bet had they pushed VG-1 over their Tri-Ad lock there would be people complaining about about that too. Just shows you can never please everybody.
 
I've never owned a Cold Steel knife and, until recently, never considered buying one. What has started to appeal to me is how they are constructing their folders: G10 slabs w/ no liners + Tri-Ad lock.

The simplicity and ruggedness of that design really appeals to me.

I could care less about the nuances of VG1 versus AUS8 -- both would be more than adequate for my needs.

My two main Cold Steel gripes are still the same:

1. Almost everything they make is over-the-top "tactical" and/or mall-ninja-ish
2. I don't like hollow-ground blade geometry

Despite these, I'm eagerly watching for the new Hold Out III. I hate all the finger grooves and overly complicated handle designs of late -- so to see something so streamlined and simple from this company in particular is a nice surprise.

If I look past its tactical aspirations, the Hold Out III's shape even reminds me of a traditional puuko, which is really why I'm interested in it in the first place.

CS11HM.jpg
 
Last edited:
shortwinger said:
The mall music was too loud so I missed the point... (just kidding, couldn't resist)

I think I got the point. I just get frustrated when average people having fun with their knives get slammed for it. It would be different if people were getting ripped off or killed because their CS knives were breaking or failing all over the place. But the constant mall ninja bashing and the predictable 50 post pile-on gets old, thread after thread after thread. Any reasonable person would have to admit that the average CS knife is pretty darn good as a user. I can't speak as a collector because that is not what I do. I would think from that persective, they would be rather common. But to knock them as users?
Click to expand...

I wasn't knocking CS users. I wasn't knocking the knives. I wasn't even really knocking CS (ok, maybe a little). My points was that only a very small percentage of their customer base understand or care about the switch in steels. Certainly they might lose some sales of knives (several posters above aren't too happy about it), but obviously they're saving more money than they'll lose, or they wouldn't do it. The rest of their customers - the ones who see a knife in the mall that they saw doing nasty stuff to sides of beef and car doors - will never know the difference or care. Truth be told, most of us wouldn't know the difference if they didn't label the knives.

I'm indifferent to CS knives because I get get better for the same price from other companies. I dislike CS because of their (lack of ethics). I laugh at CS because of their marketing. But you're right, this has been done to death, ad nauseum.

The point I was making was that CS is completely willing to "downgrade" the steel in their knives to save a few bucks. Most other companies won't do that. But given CS' marketing strategy and its customer base, I'm not surprised, and no one else should be either.

shortwinger said:
And by way of disclosure, I am also a CS dealer. The military, LE and Tac guys love all their stuff. They want to use it, beat it up and still be in the fight and that is what they get. I honestly don't know of a single person that has one of their knives that doesn't love it. (not on this forum of course :-)

And of course there are better (different) steels out there but as one of the posts correctly pointed out, they are a business and have to produce what will sell. Even at dealer prices I don't have any personal San Mai blades. My personal CS knife is an SK5 Recon Scout and I love it. But I think it is hard to argue that a company that offers knives like the Recon Scout, SRK and others in affordable metals such as SK5 or Aus 8 and higher end metals like San Mai isn't listening to their customers. And I would also argue that CS has one of the highest profession user bases (military, LE & hunters) of any production company around besides companies like Ka-Bar/Becker. [another plain Jane kind of company that also has tons of steel carried on the side of working professionals]
Click to expand...

This is the result of their marketing strategy. Lots of us might find it absurd, but none will deny that it works. They don't cater to the steel snob, they appeal to the masses. I'm not saying that CS doesn't make a good product, but there's certainly better, and the bulk of their sales go to people who aren't looking for better, they're just looking for that cool knife they saw on youtube or one of those "Proof" DVDs they got for free at a knife ship. And that's fine. As for myself, I'll go with a company that doesn't steal other companies' designs and doesn't switch to "inferior" steels to save a few bucks.

FWIW, I do own one Cold Steel knife. Made by Camillus by hard working Americans. Purchased from a former knifemaker at Camillus, who purchased it from Camillus' auction, so CS never took delivery on it, and thus none of my money ever went to CS. The piece of junk the worst lock on any folder I've owned, and fails every spine whack test I've thrown at it though...

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • CS1.jpg
    CS1.jpg
    51.9 KB · Views: 196
Planterz said:
I wasn't knocking CS users. I wasn't knocking the knives. I wasn't even really knocking CS (ok, maybe a little). My points was that only a very small percentage of their customer base understand or care about the switch in steels. Certainly they might lose some sales of knives (several posters above aren't too happy about it), but obviously they're saving more money than they'll lose, or they wouldn't do it. The rest of their customers - the ones who see a knife in the mall that they saw doing nasty stuff to sides of beef and car doors - will never know the difference or care. Truth be told, most of us wouldn't know the difference if they didn't label the knives.

I'm indifferent to CS knives because I get get better for the same price from other companies. I dislike CS because of their (lack of ethics). I laugh at CS because of their marketing. But you're right, this has been done to death, ad nauseum.

The point I was making was that CS is completely willing to "downgrade" the steel in their knives to save a few bucks. Most other companies won't do that. But given CS' marketing strategy and its customer base, I'm not surprised, and no one else should be either.



This is the result of their marketing strategy. Lots of us might find it absurd, but none will deny that it works. They don't cater to the steel snob, they appeal to the masses. I'm not saying that CS doesn't make a good product, but there's certainly better, and the bulk of their sales go to people who aren't looking for better, they're just looking for that cool knife they saw on youtube or one of those "Proof" DVDs they got for free at a knife ship. And that's fine. As for myself, I'll go with a company that doesn't steal other companies' designs and doesn't switch to "inferior" steels to save a few bucks.

FWIW, I do own one Cold Steel knife. Made by Camillus by hard working Americans. Purchased from a former knifemaker at Camillus, who purchased it from Camillus' auction, so CS never took delivery on it, and thus none of my money ever went to CS. The piece of junk the worst lock on any folder I've owned, and fails every spine whack test I've thrown at it though...

attachment.php
Click to expand...

The change to AUS-8 had nothing to do with making more money, it was a necessary change that needed to be made due to the change in production factory, and the price went down a lot also.

They had to make the change to meet demand, they can't sell what isn't being made. ;)
 
Goldangit, they stole the design for the stockman too! Nice knife BTW, looks pristine.
 
shortwinger said:
Lets face it, most snobs use their knives less in five years than many working class "average Joes" do in a day on the farm.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:

That could not be more true.

I don't yet own a CS knife but I have one of their machetes and a tomahawk. They aren't fantastic but for the price I paid, 16$ and 27$ respectively I can't expect more. I'm also ok with Aus-8. Sure its not my favorite but its super easy to sharpen, holds a utility edge (won't hold a shaving edge very long) and have never, in my experience, chipped, cracked, or rusted.

Also, does anybody know why we can't get VG-1 outside of japan? Obviously it wouldn't be called 'VG-1' but their must be an American/European copy of it around.
 
mat_890 said:
:thumbup:

That could not be more true.

I don't yet own a CS knife but I have one of their machetes and a tomahawk. They aren't fantastic but for the price I paid, 16$ and 27$ respectively I can't expect more. I'm also ok with Aus-8. Sure its not my favorite but its super easy to sharpen, holds a utility edge (won't hold a shaving edge very long) and have never, in my experience, chipped, cracked, or rusted.

Also, does anybody know why we can't get VG-1 outside of japan? Obviously it wouldn't be called 'VG-1' but their must be an American/European copy of it around.
Click to expand...

Because the Company that makes it doesn't export it, they also make VG-10 and their San-Mai steels and Laminated VG-10. ;)
 
Haha, my response was completely tongue-in-cheek. I was being a smart a$$. Still a nice knife though! Love that long pull nick.

"Almost every major knife company makes stockmans or has in the past."
 
Any steel snobs or 200-300$ folder owners should be able to make a video or somehow document how their knives are so much more superior to coldsteel's tri-ad lock folders. I'm not arguing edge retention but what is more of a "user". Why not put a large benchmade bedlam/onslaught or spyderco police/military against the coldsteel spartan or espada in a very hard use test or maybe even a destruction test ? I never seen it being done and that shows me some things but two in particular.. #1. They have a product that is too expensive and they are unwilling to put it up to the tactical/heavy-duty use they claim to be made for because they are afraid they will break. So in other words, they baby their expensive knives.I'm sure that I will get some flack about this comment but surely their is at least one wealthy knife guy out there that is willing to spend a couple hundred dollars( like noss but with folders) to see how well these knives will do in a destruction test. And #2. Maybe they just know that the large tri-ad lock folders would win by a landslide and don't do the tests to save face.The tri-ad lock in it's larger manifestations turns the folder into nearly a pocket fixed blade and that is why it is pushed so much.
 
So write them an Email. The last one I sent, I got a personal responce from Lynn Tompson. :D
 
mat_890 said:
Also, does anybody know why we can't get VG-1 outside of japan? Obviously it wouldn't be called 'VG-1' but their must be an American/European copy of it around.
Click to expand...

The American VG-1 plant was right next door to the buggy whip factory and the solar panel factory but they closed too. Who the hell wants to make anything here? Barry and the boys take 51 cents out of every dollar right off the top, tax "you" on the half you get to keep, make you pay medical for employees that whine and complain about everything and then they call you "part of the problem" for owning a business! Its a lot easier to email Japan or Taiwan and tell them what you want....
 
I have owned CS knives since 1984 and have always been a fan of the voyager series. I don't go for their off the wall designs, but their standard stuff that I have used over the years fits my idea of what working knife should be. They always held up to abuse, sharpened easy and are fairly cheap to replace.


....I just think some people are pissed because CS knives don't look so good sitting on a safe shelf.
 
Last edited:
shortwinger said:
I highly doubt anything Cold Steel could do would impress knife snobs because they are a company [a business] and not a "custom" knife maker. I love the way "average Joe" is mentioned in these holier-then-thou comments. It sounds like Nancy Pelosi talking about the p-p-p-people. I remember when average Joe was an important person. He kept your business alive and was your neighbor and friend. Now he is the butt of jokes and snobbery.

And by the way, people that watch youtube videos laugh at people that "live on knife forums" and test their pretty expensive customs by taking theoretical camping trips! Lets face it, most snobs use their knives less in five years than many working class "average Joes" do in a day on the farm.

The truth is, with all the cameras out there, and year after year of snobs making fun of CS videos, you would think that more people would have made comparison videos showing their superior designs and breaking down [with proof] how their vast knowledge of steel composition makes their "steel diseur" better than Aus 8 or San Mai or SK5. Of course you can do a quick search on these very forums and find that when the CS knives were Carbon V, everyone wanted Aus 8. When they were SK5 everyone wanted Carbon V. Now that some are Aus 8, they want San Mai. When they get San Mai, then its too expensive (even though any other knife in San Mai would be 5 times more).

Most of these knife forum jocks get bored with their CS knives long before the factory edge is dull. They are just too plain, easy to sharpen, hold an edge and last too long for most and of course, they lack snob appeal. My guess is that more "users" are happily using their CS knives every day and chuckle at the 700 post threads hypothesizing about whether 1080 or 1095 steel is best. (that is best said with your pinky extended!) The truth is, these are the type of posts that drive people away from knife forums and make people stay away from custom knives. See it turns out that "knife snobs" are really the butt of the jokes from average Joe Douchbag shopping at the mall, or as they are sometimes called; most of the fricken planet...

Well I'm off to the mall..........
Click to expand...

Well spoken!
 
I am a Cold Steel fan of the first hour. This issue has been very hotly debated at the CS forum, and no consensus was reached. My personal take is, I love the new models, the AL, the Recon 1, the new Voyagers, Counter Pointer, Holdout, even the Mini Tuff. I love how they incorporate the unbeatable Tri-Ad lock into all of these models. At the same time I have a problem with buying such excellently made folders with a mediocre steel. Especially the AL, Recon 1 and Voyagers deserve better, and at that price point too.
I understand why CS used AUS8A, but they owe it to themselves and their loyal customers to upgrade to something along the lines of VG-10, 154CM, even 440C would be an improvement.
I bought a used AL from a fellow forummember, it's a really well-made knife and I love everything about it, the ergo's are great, handle is very grippy, blade shape is great but as expected the blade dulls easily, even compared to a Grip in 440C. The AL simply screams for a better blade steel.
I hope Cold Steel delivers in the not too distant future. :thumbup:
 
shortwinger said:
The American VG-1 plant was right next door to the buggy whip factory and the solar panel factory but they closed too. Who the hell wants to make anything here? Barry and the boys take 51 cents out of every dollar right off the top, tax "you" on the half you get to keep, make you pay medical for employees that whine and complain about everything and then they call you "part of the problem" for owning a business! Its a lot easier to email Japan or Taiwan and tell them what you want....
Click to expand...

I don't see how this contributed to the fellas question?:(

mat_890 said:
:thumbup:

That could not be more true.

I don't yet own a CS knife but I have one of their machetes and a tomahawk. They aren't fantastic but for the price I paid, 16$ and 27$ respectively I can't expect more. I'm also ok with Aus-8. Sure its not my favorite but its super easy to sharpen, holds a utility edge (won't hold a shaving edge very long) and have never, in my experience, chipped, cracked, or rusted.

Also, does anybody know why we can't get VG-1 outside of japan? Obviously it wouldn't be called 'VG-1' but their must be an American/European copy of it around.
Click to expand...

As for the US equivilent, I am unsure. I know what mat is referring to, kind of like ATS34 and 154cm. Maybe one of the 440's?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top