Cold Steel's New German 4116 Krupp Steel

knives have been made for major companies in taiwan for many years. the quality can certainly be outstanding. i have no experience with the krupp alloy but the vg1 is slightly better than aus8. i base that on kitchen use & in cardboard cutting tests. the edge durability was confirmed by 2 other well known formites. having used c.s. from the 80s i can say many are excellent. i believe that thompsons personal appearance & his vocal comments in videos make many people un justly dislike his products. just because the man has a distasteful manner doe'nt mean all his knives are junk.
dennis
 
While doing research on a CS Bush Ranger that I bought around the mid-1980's, I found out from some of the CS forum veterans that Cold Steel used Krupp steel for some of their large knives produced in China and could be easily identified by Made in China or "China" on the tang.

I never saw one but it seemed to be common knowledge to these guys who knew which knives and what years they were produced in. Mine said Seki City or Made in Japan (don't recall since I sold the knife) which clearly made it an AUS8 blade.

Do I know if it's any good? No. I know they said that the Chinese made Krupp knives weren't as good, according to them. :)
 
JSR said:
I've seen the specs of 1.4116 also, but I wonder if it's like 13C26. On paper, 13C26 looks like a low-end steel, but it performs very well due to, from what I've been told by knife friends, that it is a powder steel that is very clean of impurities. Is 1.4116 like this also?...looks poor on paper, but performs quite well???
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It's clean, but it's not a powder steel. I just got a CS Kudu, so we'll see how it holds up after I get the thing rebeveled. The edge angle is so variable, I think CS must have convexed it in the wrong direction. On the other hand, it's an $8 knife that would shave hair off my arm out of the box.
 
I remember this thread the first time around. I like how it ended the first time. When somebody asked if anyone has actually USED either of these new steels. I don't know a thing out the VG1. But the 4116 is not terrible steel for how inexpensive it is. It's easy to sharpen, and holds an edge long enough for an probably an hours worth of real work. And re sharpening is amazingly easy. When they first came out, I bought one each of the cold steel roach belly, finn bear and canadian belt knife. I think I paid less then $25 for all of them. To put things in perspective, I don't own any Cold Steel knives in 4116 krupp. They have been replaced by moras.
 
That's interesting, if they are the models with 12C27M, then you have the same carbon and chromium amounts, with the moras having a little silicon for toughness and deoxidizing, and the krupp steel having carbide formers in moly and vanadium.

Are the moras stainless? If so, what improvements did you find in the steel? Or was this an issue of ergonomics or blade pattern?
 
hardheart said:
Are the moras stainless? If so, what improvements did you find in the steel? Or was this an issue of ergonomics or blade pattern?
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Yes my moras are stainless. Having used both types of knives, the big differences to me seems to be that the Moras have a better edge geometry, better ergonomics in the handles, and it also seems to be that the Moras have a harder steel. I know of course ergonomics are different for everyone, and people prefer different geometry. The steel may just seem harder to me because of the different way you have to sharpen a mora, and the extra time that takes (for me anyway).

Over all, If you can get the Cold Steel Krupp fixed blades for around what you would pay for a mora, then I think either way you can't go wrong.
Now I'm considering buying another Canadian belt knife. The one I did have, I gave to a friend of mine who I camp with infrequently.

Edit to add: I think that the Krupp knives would do particularly well for younger knife enthusiasts or people learning to sharpen. They have a more common edge geometry, a soft steel and they are inexpensive. AND they are a serviceable blade.
 
SilentJohn said:
Are those kudu ring knives illegal in certain areas
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I'm sure they are covered by the same laws governing any locking folding knife. There is nothing about them to make them any more restricted than any other such folder. They blades are a bit longer, but that's why I bought it. They spec at 4.25" blades. Fortunately, we have no blade length limit here in NC or SC.
 
ac1d0v3r1d3 said:
Yes my moras are stainless. Having used both types of knives, the big differences to me seems to be that the Moras have a better edge geometry, better ergonomics in the handles, and it also seems to be that the Moras have a harder steel. I know of course ergonomics are different for everyone, and people prefer different geometry. The steel may just seem harder to me because of the different way you have to sharpen a mora, and the extra time that takes (for me anyway).
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The steel likely is harder. The 12C27 used is typically spec'd at 59 HRc, while the carbon steel versions are a point or 2 lower. This is from advertising, not actual tests, so they could both vary a couple of points in either direction. The technique for sharpening a Mora, assuming you want to maintain the original edge geometry, requires you to remove much more steel than on conventionally ground knives. This has more to do with how long it takes to sharpen than hardness in this case. This is one mystery to me on how people say Moras are easier to sharpen. The technique is easy, but the time involved is much more, depending on how you do it. According to my reading, a microbevel is much more common than most believe, and cuts sharpening time a lot, until its time to regrind the main bevel.
 
I think you've got your Rockwell's for the Mora carbon vs stainless mixed up.

This is straight from Ragweed Forge's Mora page.

Carbon steel blades (1095) are hardened to 59 - 60 on the Rockwell scale, stainless blades to 57 - 58. Frosts carbon steel blades are hardened to about 59 and the stainless to about 57. A speciality of Mora is the laminated carbon blade. This is a three part sandwich, with a core of high carbon steel protected by sides of tough lower carbon steel. The core of the laminated steel blades is 61-62. Normally, I much prefer carbon steel over stainless steel, but I have to admit that the Swedish stainless (Sandvik 12C27mod for Eriksson, 12C27 for Frosts) holds an excellent edge. For use around water, especially salt water, it may be the better choice. The knives listed are of carbon steel unless specified as stainless.
 
hardheart said:
That's interesting, if they are the models with 12C27M, then you have the same carbon and chromium amounts, with the moras having a little silicon for toughness and deoxidizing, and the krupp steel having carbide formers in moly and vanadium.

Are the moras stainless? If so, what improvements did you find in the steel? Or was this an issue of ergonomics or blade pattern?
Click to expand...

1.4116
V = 0.1%
Mo = 0.4 %

That is too little of those elements to produce noticeable carbide formation such that wear resistance is increased. When used in those concentrations, the V is there to refine the grain size and the Moly is there to improve the strength and corrosion resistance.
 
SilentJohn said:
Thanks me2 I live in jersey and I think out law says anything over 3 inches is illegal
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I live in New Jersey. Our law has no length restrictions, with one exception: you cannot sell a knife with a blade over 5" or overall length over 10" to anyone under 18 years of age.
 
For what it's worth.
Thyssen-Krupp names their steels using abbreviated W-Nr standard names. I.e. N.MMMM is transformed to just MMMM, removing N. So, W-Nr 1.4116 became 4116 in Krupp's naming convention. Which is neither new, nor anything "outstanding". It is the same DIN X50CrMoV15 steel used in medium and high end (sadly) kitchen knives by Henckels, Wusthof, Messermeister and many others. Also produced by Ugine & Alz as UGINOX MA5MV or simply MA5MV and few other names too:PK5(Metal Ravne), RFSh5(Ossenberg).

Available specifications from Krupp just confirm that - 1.4116 vs. Krupp 4116 steel composition comparison.
 
knarfeng said:
1.4116
V = 0.1%
Mo = 0.4 %

That is too little of those elements to produce noticeable carbide formation such that wear resistance is increased. When used in those concentrations, the V is there to refine the grain size and the Moly is there to improve the strength and corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...
hmm, my memory must have been off, I thought there was twice the Mo & V. V still would have not done more than refine grain, but the Mo should eat up some of the carbon.
 
Awesome thanks esav I will feel better carrying my crkt natural large now , and I always figured my ca ak47 could slde by since it's not overly flashy
 
I have absolutely no problem with Krupp 4116 as used by Cold Steel. The steel quickly takes a hair popping, mirror edge and seems quite tough. I use my Kudu a lot for fruit and appreciate it's corrosion resistance. All in all, 4116 is consistent with it's value applications by Cold Steel.
 
ac1d0v3r1d3 said:
I remember this thread the first time around. I like how it ended the first time. When somebody asked if anyone has actually USED either of these new steels. I don't know a thing out the VG1. But the 4116 is not terrible steel for how inexpensive it is. It's easy to sharpen, and holds an edge long enough for an probably an hours worth of real work. And re sharpening is amazingly easy. When they first came out, I bought one each of the cold steel roach belly, finn bear and canadian belt knife. I think I paid less then $25 for all of them. To put things in perspective, I don't own any Cold Steel knives in 4116 krupp. They have been replaced by moras.
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I'll wager everyone here has used 4116. It's the steel used by Victorinox, at least it was reported as such on KF a few years ago.
 
Why do we still bother about CS products? Clearly they are in a class of their own...
 
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