Cold Steel's San Mai a Rip-Off

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Tsujigiri said:
Cold Steel fans, if you really do like your brand, please offer some reasons instead of just flaming skeptics. Yes, Spyderco gets mentioned a lot in Cold Steel threads. But the opposite isn't true. That's because Spyderco fans tend to offer support for liking their brand. I've posted threads expressing my distrust of some Spyderco designs, and I've gotten solid responses. The result is that I've come to like the brand and have learned a lot about knives in the process. I feel like if I did the same for Cold Steel, I would be instantly flamed.
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You get flamed because you claimed cold steel fans are mall ninjas. I already posted why I like cold steel. I also like spyderco, benchmade,kershaw, esee, etc. They all have good knives in their lineup.

I still love the hypocracy on this board. One Guy gets bashed for over the top videos(which do show the knives doing what they are supposed to do) while another claims to be special forces when he wasn't ........but he uses fancy steel so apparently all is forgiven.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
AUS-8 gets a bad rap for some reason...but in my experience it's quite solid stuff. It's not the latest and greatest, and it's not expensive, but it holds an edge reasonably well, is easy to sharpen, and has a good degree of corrosion resistance. It's just fine for me. :shrug:
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As long as it's really AUS-8 and HT right it's good stuff. :thumbup:
 
ThePharce said:
ss

You get flamed because you claimed cold steel fans are mall ninjas.
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No, I claimed that mall ninjas like Cold Steel. Read carefully, there's room in my wording for knowledgeable people who like Cold Steel. But if you were to take any given mall ninja, chances are that Cold Steel's products would appeal to them more than other brands. And that is the definition of flaming; reacting quickly without much care taken to read or think.
 
I characterize flaming as the running of the mouth of matters that owner of the mouth has little or no experience in.
 
Confederate said:
If one goes to the Cold Steel website, one reads regarding the company's San Mai III steel: "A simple way to think of San Mai III® blade construction is to imagine a sandwich: The meat center is hard, high carbon steel and the pieces of bread on either side are the lower-carbon, tough side panels. The edge of the blade should be hard to maximize edge holding ability, but if the entire blade was hard it could be damaged during the rigors of battle."

The problem is, the "hard, high carbon steel" is not high carbon steel at all, but stainless VG-1, which is almost like AUS8, which was the "meat center" of the company's San Mai II a few years ago.

Now I have nothing against VG-1. I think it's a great mid-level stainless steel that's easy to sharpen and is plenty tough as to not require 420 panels! But wait, I thought, maybe they heat treat the VG-1 steel to be harder and perhaps a bit more brittle. So I called the company and asked one of their tech people. The answer, unfortunately, is no, there's no difference in the heat treat. It's the same "subzero-quenched" stainless used in their old Voyagers and other knives. If they didn't need 420 panels, why do the new ones need them (at extra cost)? I'd like to buy some of the new Voyagers with the Tri-Ad locks, but I don't want to pay a premium for a mid-level grade steel that's a gimmick.

Maybe there's something I'm missing. I have a Konjo that's made of brightly polished San Mai III (it was on sale), and it came with the sharpest blade I've ever seen on a production knife. I was just wondering if any of you had the new Voyagers with San Mai, and what your thoughts are.

Also, if anyone has any good photos of their Tri-Ad Voyagers or other models, I'd like to see what the blades look like.

.
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1. You got me all worked up thinking they put VG-1 back in the 2011 Voyagers. Shame on you.

2. If the Cold Steel "tech" guy just said "sub zero quench" the same as everything else, chances are he isn't allowed to say any more, doesn't know any more, or assumed you don't know what the Rockwell scale is.
According to the Takefu website, with the recommended heat treat VG-1 comes out one Rc harder than VG-10, so at least it's not average in every way.

3. Laminating steel isn't necessarily more expensive. It can be a cost cutting measure. Even if the process makes a steel bar more expensive, the soft 420 will be much, much easier to grind. Considering that grinding is one of the larger costs in the production of a knife, it probably saves money overall.

I personally think VG-1 is a very good choice for Cold Steel. It fits with their "tough knives" branding and holds a decent edge at the same time.
 
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Ankerson said:
As long as it's really AUS-8 and HT right it's good stuff. :thumbup:
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Exactly. This is what 440C went through over the past decade, though it's now seeing a return of its good name. It may be simple and affordable, but as long as the HT is good then it performs pretty well, too!
 
knarfeng said:
So, have you actually compared the performance of VG1 to VG10 side by side? I have. Ankerson and I have both done edge retention testing on VG1. In both sets of tests, VG1 held an an edge as well as VG10. I measured the hardness of a Cold Steel VG1 Voyager at 59 HRC. That is the same hardness as I measured on several Spyderco VG10 blades.
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That's great news, and I'm astounded. Have you done corresponding tests of Cold Steel's AUS8? I've always been curious as to the differences between VG-1 and AUS8.

Given the performance of VG-1 in your tests, it still seems to hold its own without needing 420 slabs. (BTW, someone earlier said that it was 420J2. That's not true...420J2 isn't applied to the San Mai knives.)

Cold Steel knives have always been great performers for me, and they should get a lot more credit for their heat treat, which is GREAT. Some people complain that CS doesn't actually make their knives, but have others make them. I've never cared at all about that because the quality of CS knives, with but few exceptions, has been exceptional. Having said that, I still think San Mai is a rip-off unless people like the looks of the it. I got my Konjo for a bargain and it's the sharpest production knife I've ever bought. Whether that's because of the San Mai or just the grind, I don't know, but the Konjo was also the most beautiful knife I've ever bought.

Oh, well...thanks again for the info!

.
 
Ive gotten a handful of tootsie pops with my every cold steel purchase... clearly the superior brand on that basis.
 
A.P.F. said:
Sounds like a 'pop in cheek' statement to me. :)
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just got a city stick in the mail today... sure enough tootsie pops 4 blue and one 1 red... I would of much perfered 4 red and one blue... but hey I aint complaining
 
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Joshua J.:

1. You got me all worked up thinking they put VG-1 back in the 2011 Voyagers. Shame on you.

Not so! I said: "The answer, unfortunately, is no, there's no difference in the heat treat. It's the same "subzero-quenched" stainless used in their old Voyagers...." Before using San Mai in their Voyagers, they used VG-1, and before that, AUS8. The San Mai Voyagers were canceled. CS's website states: "The new Voyagers and Gunsites have been CANCELLED (sic) because they did not meet our ... delivery schedule requirements. All backorders will be CANCELLED (sic) and the Voyagers will be reintroduced in Spring 2011. We will have more information on the 2011 Voyagers at a later date." -- Confed

2. If the Cold Steel "tech" guy just said "sub zero quench" the same as everything else, chances are he isn't allowed to say any more, doesn't know any more, or assumed you don't know what the Rockwell scale is. According to the Takefu website, with the recommended heat treat VG-1 comes out one Rc harder than VG-10, so at least it's not average in every way.

I didn't say it was average. I just said it's not the same. I don't understand why you would presume to know what the tech guy at CS was thinking and what he knew and didn't know and what he was assuming my knowledge of the Rockwell scale was, nor do I know what your point is. My point is that VG-1 is a good stainless steel that's been used by CS to make blades that were 5- and 6-inches in length. These blades didn't show any signs of failing or needing soft steel panels, and it appears that the VG-1 used in Voyagers is exactly the same as that found in San Mai III, and that the heat treating is the same. This is the same steel that CS workers put in vices and bent in excess of 45 degrees. Why would such steel need panels? --Confed[/COLOR]
 
I love reading Cold Steel Threads ! Did they ever start making their own knives since Camillus went under? The original Carbon 5 was buzz worded heavily. It was "Granularly designed" , Meaning they took into consideration the direction the 1095 sheet rolled off of the rollers when it came from the Mill. I think they are mostly a marketing company. but I spent enough money on their products to find this out on my own.
 
I think spyderco is nothing but a marketing company...

How many times can the marketing company statement be addressed?
 
Klok said:
I think spyderco is nothing but a marketing company...

How many times can the marketing company statement be addressed?
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Your actually putting CS and Spyderco in the same sentance with that? You really got to be kidding.:jerkit:
 
Confederate said:
Given the performance of VG-1 in your tests, it still seems to hold its own without needing 420 slabs..
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his tests do not involve the lateral strength or corrosion resistance of the blade at all, I don't even see why you keep bringing up edge performance with a steel laminate.
 
Pretty much, since edge retention tests only require sharpening. Bending strength and impact resistance tests lead to broken knives. Corrosion resistance tests are sometimes done, but people vary in how much they care about that property to begin with. All knives cut, they don't all pry or chop, plus surface finish and environment control corrosion.
 
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