Compact hiking/camping axe or hatchet

[The Zieg]

Did you ever look into the prank axe's ?
I just looked on their website and that have a German style boys axe ( 2-1/4 lb - 1000gr and 23"-60c )model 3.011.c for 32.70 that might be a good option.
They also have some tomahawk style hatchets that may be nice.

Maybe autocorrect changed this word for him?

Zieg

 

[Herlock]

Hi!

@ Littleknife: Thanks. Yes, I think I have now better targeted my search also based on everyone’s inputs here :thumbup:, given my intended use. Swedish axes have my attention. Do you think is there any real difference between Wetterlings and Gransfors (manufacturing, technology, forge, F&F, etc)? I am not an expert and they look very similar to me! I am considering seriously the Council products too.

@Rjdankert: LOL

@ TheZieg: Yes, I am pretty sure it’s some misspelling issue but I am curious about Hickory n steel real suggestion. I was then confused when I Googled it, given the prank translation meaning…

 

[Hickory n steel]

Hi Hickory n steel! Maybe it's me today who's bit slow (Friday ) but don't manage to find this that you are mentioning. Prank axe model 3.011? Is this a joke I don't get, or? Thanks!

My phone Auto corrected prandi, sorry about that .

 

[littleknife]

Swedish axes have my attention. Do you think is there any real difference between Wetterlings and Gransfors (manufacturing, technology, forge, F&F, etc)? I am not an expert and they look very similar to me! I am considering seriously the Council products too.

I am not an expert either, but will give you my opinion anyway. :foot:
I have read that both Swedish companies use a very similar steel and both forge the heads using the same technology. Gransfors is considered to have a better F&F, but since the most recent ownership change at Wetterlings the latter’s F&F has improved too. Wetterlings axes used to be a little bit more robust in appearance (heavier heads, thicker bits), and this still could be the case. I think either one will serve you well, since both are well made.

These Swedish axes are designed mainly for softwoods (pine, spruce) and softer hardwoods (alder, poplar/aspen), while the Council Tool boy’s axe design is a more generalist tool, better suited for processing harder woods like oak, beech etc. too. But these are just tendencies, either one of these axes will do the job.

For occasional use, I would choose the axe which I like the best based on looks and could afford. For regular, heavy use I would take into consideration the type of wood to be processed too. For occasional, light use a smaller axe or even a larger hatchet is just fine, but for larger amounts of firewood the bigger the axe, the easier and faster you will get the job done.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I am not an expert either, but will give you my opinion anyway. :foot:
I have read that both Swedish companies use a very similar steel and both forge the heads using the same technology. Gransfors is considered to have a better F&F, but since the most recent ownership change at Wetterlings the latter’s F&F has improved too. Wetterlings axes used to be a little bit more robust in appearance (heavier heads, thicker bits), and this still could be the case. I think either one will serve you well, since both are well made.

These Swedish axes are designed mainly for softwoods (pine, spruce) and softer hardwoods (alder, poplar/aspen), while the Council Tool boy’s axe design is a more generalist tool, better suited for processing harder woods like oak, beech etc. too. But these are just tendencies, either one of these axes will do the job.

For occasional use, I would choose the axe which I like the best based on looks and could afford. For regular, heavy use I would take into consideration the type of wood to be processed too. For occasional, light use a smaller axe or even a larger hatchet is just fine, but for larger amounts of firewood the bigger the axe, the easier and faster you will get the job done.

Seeing as we are the land of hardwoods, i will always argue that vintage American axes ( America knows how to make a good axe, but things used to be better ) are the best in the world. ( if it wasn't for America there'd be no such thing as a poll axe, and axes wouldn't be very good tools ) anyone can argue with me all they want but I will never change my mind😁😁😁

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Seeing as we are the land of hardwoods, i will always argue that vintage American axes ( America knows how to make a good axe, but things used to be better ) are the best in the world. ( if it wasn't for America there'd be no such thing as a poll axe, and axes wouldn't be very good tools ) anyone can argue with me all they want but I will never change my mind😁😁😁

The use of a poll is but one school of design with regards to axes. It is fully possible to make highly effective axes that have little or no poll, but they operate under different design principles.

 

[littleknife]

The use of a poll is but one school of design with regards to axes. It is fully possible to make highly effective axes that have little or no poll, but they operate under different design principles.

You are absolutely right, FortyTwoBlades!
For example in Central and Eastern Europe even today most axes are poll-less or with just a hint of poll.
To make things “worse”, in places like Bulgaria and Serbia, axes with huge beards, resembling hewing axes, were used even very recently to fell trees, and to further process them, including the firewood splitting. In South America and Russia the local traditional axes without polls are still widely used.
Having used different types of axes, I agree, that the American polled axe is probably the most comfortable to use, but other designs are clearly user-friendly enough to allow the job being done.

The Swedish “boutique” axes sold by Gransfors, Wetterlings and Hults Bruk do have polls and their beard is not overly pronounced, so they fall more or less into the American-type polled axe category.

From practical point of view I think the most relevant difference between the above Swedish axes and the current Council Tool ones is the hardness of the bit. The Swedish axes are hardened & tempered to become a little bit harder (57-58 HRC), while the Council Tool axes are a little bit softer (48-55 HRC, on average 52-54 HRC), which results in the edge rolling rather than chip out in harder woods.

I would reiterate that if the axe will be used only a few times a year, better to choose one which has the strongest aesthetic appeal to the person, because in this case the “pride of ownership” and “satisfaction” factors are big part of the cumulative user value.
If it will be used regularly & to process large amount of wood, then it is worth to consider other functional parameters as design, handle shape and hardness too.

Whatever the final choice, be careful, think ahead, learn, practice, think about safety - use eye protection and common sense.

 

[Square_peg]

.... i will always argue that vintage American axes ( America knows how to make a good axe, but things used to be better ) are the best in the world. ( if it wasn't for America there'd be no such thing as a poll axe, and axes wouldn't be very good tools )

Agreed.

An axe head that is balanced by a substantial poll is far superior to a poll-less or nearly poll-less axe. People talk about a supposed accuracy difference between straight vs. curved haft. That's inconsequential compared to the difference that an ample poll makes.

And the longer the bit, the less accurate the axe if not balanced by a poll. That's one thing that Dudley Cook got right in his Ax Book.

Probably the worst axes ever made are those French POS's with the short eye, long bit and completely inadequate poll. It's no wonder American colonists quickly rejected that model.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Agreed.

An axe head that is balanced by a substantial poll is far superior to a poll-less or nearly poll-less axe. People talk about a supposed accuracy difference between straight vs. curved haft. That's inconsequential compared to the difference that an ample poll makes.

And the longer the bit, the less accurate the axe if not balanced by a poll. That's one thing that Dudley Cook got right in his Ax Book.

Probably the worst axes ever made are those French POS's with the short eye, long bit and completely inadequate poll. It's no wonder American colonists quickly rejected that model.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding on how such axes balance...American axes balance like a "T" while poll-less axes balance like a "7". The length of the bit in and of itself is independent of accuracy. Rather it's how far the edge sits in front of the tool's axle. Because on a "T"-balanced axe this will correlate with bit depth, it's an easy conflation to make, but "7" balanced axes are able to have deeper bits without a negative effect on accuracy because the axle of the tool lies ahead of the eye, shortening the distance between itself and the edge.

Consider the following diagram for some graphical demonstrations of the interplay of the variables.

The red dot is the center of gravity, the blue dot is the grip point, the green dotted line between is the "axle", or the axis of rotational balance. The fuchsia line describes a line between the heel and toe of the bit.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A lot of British axes, such as this mining axe, have very deep bits and despite a fairly sizable poll the center of gravity sits pretty far forward of the eye. You can see that this is accounted for by the offset of their handles, which allow more of their length to still lay along the axle of the tool--so despite the odd shape, axes such as these still are "T" balanced.

Pretty much every style of axe in the world follows the principles in the diagram I posted, they just use different settings to the variables. But you can use those principles to see how the set of the bit, the shape of the handle, the location of the eye, etc. etc. all fall into place based on those concepts.

 

[Square_peg]

I'm afraid is it you that has a fundamental misunderstanding of axe balance. The closer the center of gravity is to the rotational center of the handle the better balance and greater accuracy the axe will have.

Every axe has a balance point. That doesn't mean it's well balanced. The eye/toe line is irrelevant to this balance and to this discussion. The eye/toe line should be set based on how you want the axe to address the cut.

Maybe your viewpoint is skewed by being a dealer of poorly balanced import axes. You have an incentive to minimize the disadvantage of a poorly balanced axe.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I'm afraid is it you that has a fundamental misunderstanding of axe balance. The closer the center of gravity is to the rotational center of the handle the better balance and greater accuracy the axe will have.

Every axe has a balance point. That doesn't mean it's well balanced. The eye/toe line is irrelevant to this balance and to this discussion. The eye/toe line should be set based on how you want the axe to address the cut.

Maybe your viewpoint is skewed by being a dealer of poorly balanced import axes. You have an incentive to minimize the disadvantage of a poorly balanced axe.

I only carry 'em 'cause I like 'em. They've actually increasingly taken over my personal stable.

Feel free to disregard the science, but your understanding here is fundamentally flawed. The rotational axis of the tool is defined not by where the handle runs, but as a straight line between the grip point and the center of gravity. The center of gravity is a fixed point unless you make alterations to the axe, but the grip point may be altered and a new grip point will then create a new axle for the tool. That does mean that a straight-handled axe without a poll will have the effective hang be altered by using different grip points along the handle while a "T" balanced won't. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. A poll-less design allows for a deeper bit without detriment to accuracy. The heel/toe line does have an impact because the proper set of the bit relative to the eye is dependent on the location of the grip point, which must lie along the handle. The relationship between the heel/toe line and the axle of the tool is the "true hang" of the tool.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Some examples of diverse axes that all follow these principles:

 

[Hickory n steel]

I don't know any of the sciency stuff, but north American axes were designed to bite deep into the vast hardwoods found here and that to me makes them the best in the World.
From the giant sequoias here in California to the hickory forests in Tennessee...ect the axes used were designed for such trees and I don't think any other axe could get the job done.

I'm sorry if you think I'm stubborn and ignorant ( nobody said that, but there's a lot that we don't post 😁 ) but I am a north American ( Canada is practically part of the us ) and will never change my mind

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

There are reasons for why American axes took the path they did in fundamental design principles. I generally agree that vintage American axes were some of the finest in the world, but it has more to do with the understanding those manufacturers had with regard to the design principles they were choosing to employ and their execution of the final product rather than with the presence or absence of a poll. The American designs themselves are not inherently superior to other global styles--they just represent one path to an end result, while the diversity of styles found globally all similarly represent paths to their desired end results. There are both bad and good examples within any school of design.

 

[FrankMA]

As a general rule, people, housing, tools, etc... adapt to the environment that surrounds it. This is a natural course of action in the Human existence and we adapt to the environment - this is what keeps us alive and moving forward. Every civilization adapts itself to the natural forces that are part of their surroundings. I do not believe that their is right or wrong in respect to what tools are used in a particular environment, but rather which tool is most suited to the environment in which one lives and wishes to thrive. Just my honest opinion based on many years of life on this planet...

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

As a general rule, people, housing, tools, etc... adapt to the environment that surrounds it. This is a natural course of action in the Human existence and we adapt to the environment - this is what keeps us alive and moving forward. Every civilization adapts itself to the natural forces that are part of their surroundings. I do not believe that their is right or wrong in respect to what tools are used in a particular environment, but rather which tool is most suited to the environment in which one lives and wishes to thrive. Just my honest opinion based on many years of life on this planet...

Absolutely. And even within nearly identical environments and contexts, there are often multiple ways to create an efficient tool for that context.

 

[littleknife]

I don't know any of the sciency stuff, but north American axes were designed to bite deep into the vast hardwoods found here and that to me makes them the best in the World.
From the giant sequoias here in California to the hickory forests in Tennessee...ect the axes used were designed for such trees and I don't think any other axe could get the job done.

I’m sorry if you think I'm stubborn and ignorant ( nobody said that, but there's a lot that we don't post 😁 ) but I am a north American ( Canada is practically part of the us ) and will never change my mind

“Best in the World” in what? South America has great many species of trees that are even harder than those in North America, and despite that people continued to use poll-less axes there even in the 20th century.

Have you ever used poll-less axes? I have and can tell you that there are both well balanced poll-less axes and unbalanced ones. The same as with polled axes. Some of the polled hardware store axes you find in the US are very poorly balanced: despite the pronounced poll they are still blade heavy.

The trick is, that, as FortyTwoBlades said, it is not only the axe head itself, but also the handle, and the way it is hung what determines the actual balance.

In addition, some of the bearded axes with only a rudimentary poll I have used had a very thick and wide cheek section, which counterbalanced the weight of the bearded bit surprisingly well:

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/281552834756-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/fFQAAOSw-7RVGtLH/s-l1600.jpg

I am not saying that these type of axes are superior or equal to the American style polled axes, but it takes to actually use them to realize that they are not necessarily the completely unbalanced monstrosities they appear to be just based on their look. Some of them are truly monstrosities and extremely poorly balanced though.

What is misleading is that the closest looking axes resembling these and which might be familiar to the North American axe users today are the hewing axes with their bearded design, which are poor for felling and splitting. Similarly, the tomahawks (descended from the Biscayan trade axes) look similar to the South American axes, but I am not sure if the balance of the typical contemporary tomahawk is necessarily representing the real balance of the South American or the traditional Italian axes.

Looks can be deceptive.
Look up please the Harz pattern Ochsenkopf Axe, a traditional regional German pattern. It has a minimal poll, yet it is well balanced.

I agree that the well designed polled axes are very well balanced.
I also agree, that having a poll makes it easier to balance an axe when it is hung/rehung, since the balancing is achieved through the counterweight of the poll rather than the positioning of the handle.
But that does not mean that all polled axes are well balanced just because they have polls, or that all poll-less axes are poorly balanced just because they lack polls.

I don’t think you are ignorant and it is also possible, that you may yet to change your mind.
And this does not require that you should buy or even recommend poll-less axes.
Finally, I also prefer the American polled axe…because it still feels so exotic and exciting to me. (I grew up with mostly poll-less axes.)

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that there's no such thing as a poorly balanced axe, but an incredible number of axes with very bad hangs. If you were to stretch the bit of an American axe without altering anything else about it, the net effect would be that the handle would be taken off-axis and the effective hang would be opened. That, naturally, can cause issues. The impact on the handle and the set of the bit relative to the head need to both be taken into account.

I actually had to figure out a lot of these principles when analyzing scythes and grass hooks, which are similarly asymmetric tools. However, they're much more difficult to analyze because the balancing occurs in three dimensions rather than virtually all in the same plane like with axes.

A couple of common variations of socket axe handles, one "7" balanced and the other "T" balanced. Handles of both arrangements have been found and replicated, and both work well as long as the hang angle is correct.

A photo manipulation highlighting the relationship of the hang angle and axle.

Desired hang angle is a whole other kettle of fish, too, with a more closed hang being preferable for higher blows and more open being more desirable for lower blows.

 

[littleknife]

I think from practical point of view the concepts of “well balanced axe” vs. “poorly balanced axe” are still useful, because for an average person it should not take a lot of guesswork and trial & error to hang a well balanced axe. IMHO from practical perspective the “well balanced axe” is one, which by design takes out much of the guesswork from achieving that good balance.
Polled axes - if well designed - have the enhanced potential to achieve that by the simplifying the “balancing act”.

I am not an expert though, I might be wrong. I just try to reconcile my limited personal experience with the frequently contradicting information I have read on this topic.