Compact hiking/camping axe or hatchet

Back when I first got a Falci "Calabria" axe from Steve Tall I was initially skeptical due to the lack of a poll, but actual use demonstrated that it wasn't an issue in the slightest, and it set me on something of a quest to figure out *why* it wasn't a problem like I'd so often been told it would be. The axle and the set of the bit relative to it ended up being the magic at work. It's worth noting that this was a few years before I had the opportunity to start carrying any of the poll-less (or minimally-polled) axes that I sell, and so predates any commercial involvement with such articles.
 
I don't know if this is the case with axes, but there are a lot of things that add benefits or flaws which most people would never notice.
In all reality I like American axes because to me that's just what an axe is supposed to look like and they appeal to me the most.
A lot of people use axes with or without polls , but I'd bet that most people ( myself included ) probably wouldn't actually notice the advantages or disadvantages associated with either.

I'm sorry for starting this argument. It's almost as if a war was started over which country has the better tasting dirt.
 
My personal experience with poll-less axes is similar to that of FortyTwoBlades, even though I have never used Italian axes.

Ugaldie, a fellow forum member from Basque Country rerouted a similar experience with poll-less Basque axes:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...zkolariak-Basque-axemen-competitions-and-bets

You can see the axe pictured in post #16.

Let me quote Ugaldie:
"Those competition axes have local made competition handles. I very like them, they are very comfortable and make the axe more accurate. In comparison with them the 2Kg Velvicut felling axe fells cumberstome to me. They don't sell them by internet but here is very easy to get them. We sometimes hang with them non racing axes, even the taper fit ones” (emphasis mine)
And just one more interesting detail: these handles are made of beech, not hickory!

So it seems, there are poll-less axes which feel not only accurate but also more user-friendly than a good quality polled axe!

As for the traditional Japanese blacksmith hammer posted above, its design is not much different, than that of the socket axes FortyTwoBlades posted earlier or that of the vast majority of adzes used through human history and all over the world. For example the traditional carving adzes of the Maoris or the Northwestern native Americans weren’t poll-balanced designs either, yet they did not seem to lack accuracy, as attested by the spectacular carvings in both cultures.

The design is widely used by contemporary woodcarvers even today, just google ‘elbow adze’, and you will find hits for companies which are selling these tools to artists for several hundred dollars. I highly doubt, that in the age of the internet, when user-feedback is widely available, a tool prone to inaccuracy by its design would be purchased by craftsmen whose livelihood depends on the tool.

One could argue, that these adzes are small tools which are easier to control, but then there are the examples of the railroad adzes, the different type of hoes.

Finally, there are great many examples of poll-less battle axes, which would not have remained in use for so long if they were so terribly inaccurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Axe

https://www.wulflund.com/weapons/axes-poleweapons/forged-battle-axe-viking-kievan-rus.html/
 
I don't know if this is the case with axes, but there are a lot of things that add benefits or flaws which most people would never notice.
In all reality I like American axes because to me that's just what an axe is supposed to look like and they appeal to me the most.
A lot of people use axes with or without polls , but I'd bet that most people ( myself included ) probably wouldn't actually notice the advantages or disadvantages associated with either.

I'm sorry for starting this argument. It's almost as if a war was started over which country has the better tasting dirt.

Hickory n steel, don’t be sorry. You did not start an argument, you contributed to a lively discussion.
Isn’t that one of the purposes of this forum?
Who knows, maybe after this discussion Herlock might decide to get both an American style axe and an Italian one, and review them for us how do they perform for him in use? :D

Discussions like this are occasions when we can obtain new information, have our beliefs challenged, replaced or reinforced.
It’s all good! It’s fun. :)
After all, we are free citizens of the Forum here, free to disagree.
Happy 4th of July!
 
Hickory n steel, don’t be sorry. You did not start an argument, you contributed to a lively discussion.
Isn’t that one of the purposes of this forum?
Who knows, maybe after this discussion Herlock might decide to get both an American style axe and an Italian one, and review them for us how do they perform for him in use? :D

Discussions like this are occasions when we can obtain new information, have our beliefs challenged, replaced or reinforced.
It’s all good! It’s fun. :)
After all, we are free citizens of the Forum here, free to disagree.
Happy 4th of July!

That makes sense to me, and happy fourth of July to you too 󾓦󾓦󾓦󾓦󾓦󾓦󾓦󾓦
 
Good discussion. My experience is that the American poll axe is superior to the polless axe. I dont care about diagrams, science, or "educated" cojecture. Hands on experience, in my opinion, is primary source information. Have you actually used these tools for production work ?, or is your opinion based on weekend warrior axe work. I spent a lifetime using an ax, but I also spent that lifetime trying everything and anything about using axes that I ever heard different from the way I was taught. I did not just "try" polless axes, I used them hard every day so as to give them a fair trial against my American pole ax. Sorry, but you can not be as productive with a polless ax. The American poll ax was developed BECAUSE it was more productive. There was a greater volume of timber in America than Europeans had ever seen.


Now for the discussion about "well, the trees were different in the new world" True, but my experience is that it does not matter. I say this because of where I now live, Hawaii. The Big Island of Hawaii has 2 almost 14,000 foot mountains down to sea level. It has 11 of the 13 climate zones that exist on planet Earth. The only 2 climate zones it does not have are full on artic and full on desert, neither of these zones produce much timber. Because of this, almost ever species of tree that grows on Earth can and is growing here. For the last 25 years part time and the last 5 years full time living here I have put my axes in everything I could. Long story, but the punch line is the same, no axe design moves wood as well as the American poll ax.
 
Hi All! Thanks a lot for your comments and the tons of very interesting infos here :thumbup:. I need to read through once more and more accurately because I am now a bit confused, also with the technical terms :D. I am continuing my research and build up some more knowledge (one great thing about this hobby), since I am not "in a hurry" to get the new axe/hatchet.

For sure, as soon I get the one I will try to post my own impressions/thoughts as I do with the knives :). Thanks again. Happy 4th July to you (here it's just another working Monday... :p)
 
Good discussion. My experience is that the American poll axe is superior to the polless axe. I dont care about diagrams, science, or "educated" cojecture. Hands on experience, in my opinion, is primary source information. Have you actually used these tools for production work ?, or is your opinion based on weekend warrior axe work. I spent a lifetime using an ax, but I also spent that lifetime trying everything and anything about using axes that I ever heard different from the way I was taught. I did not just "try" polless axes, I used them hard every day so as to give them a fair trial against my American pole ax. Sorry, but you can not be as productive with a polless ax. The American poll ax was developed BECAUSE it was more productive. There was a greater volume of timber in America than Europeans had ever seen.


Now for the discussion about "well, the trees were different in the new world" True, but my experience is that it does not matter. I say this because of where I now live, Hawaii. The Big Island of Hawaii has 2 almost 14,000 foot mountains down to sea level. It has 11 of the 13 climate zones that exist on planet Earth. The only 2 climate zones it does not have are full on artic and full on desert, neither of these zones produce much timber. Because of this, almost ever species of tree that grows on Earth can and is growing here. For the last 25 years part time and the last 5 years full time living here I have put my axes in everything I could. Long story, but the punch line is the same, no axe design moves wood as well as the American poll ax.

Do you happen to know what poll-less axes you were using? Just curious because of how so many factors besides the presence of a poll influence performance.

One of the things that I did discover in my own use of the Italian axes, at least, was that the different bit geometry had more impact on the required approach than the lack of a poll did. Because of the knife-like bits, there was very high penetration with little chip-popping ability compared to most American axes, so trying to use the same approach of popping "dinner plate" chips wouldn't work. Instead, cutting a direct notch and then taking sequential cuts to the side to describe the full mouth of the notch, taking "deck of cards" chips worked better. Since there was very little resistance to one side of the bit, even very deep blows didn't get stuck and the narrower, deeper chip would be popped just fine. The deep bit afforded by the lack of a poll then allowed that notch to be very narrow compared to what I would have to do with axes of more conventional design because I didn't have to cut clearance for the eye in most cases.

My experiences with poll-less axes mirror my experiences with American scythes. For a long time now we've been spoon-fed that one is better than the other when the reality that I've seen is that really one requires different technique than the other but is equally capable of being a fine tool. But an engineer's hammer makes a poor framing hammer and a framing hammer isn't much fun for driving star drills. Different styles with different intended approaches to their use.

My personal work has been a little above "weekend warrior" level, but certainly not production work. I use my axes for homesteading applications, which mostly means clearing up fence lines when stuff blows down on 'em or knocking down stuff the local porcupine kills. But they do see routine use.
 
Here's a quick diagram of the difference in blow patterns between American (left) and Italian (right) chopping axes, with most cuts of the American axes requiring multiple blows to connect across the face and broad-bitted Italian axes (such as the Trento pattern) usually only taking one. This is a quick and dirty sketch just for illustrating the principle, so don't take the internal volumes of wood removed as being correctly proportional, etc. The difference is only there to show that the one allows for a narrower notch than the other.

13619947_10209770341843710_3688325882669732279_n.jpg
 
In my limited experience I have used poll-less axes, axes with minimal polls and polled axes.
I have experienced well balanced and poorly balanced ones in each category of those.
I have used specialized (full size felling) axes for tasks for which they were not designed or optimized for, because I had no other dedicated tool available at the time. Not surprisingly, the results were frequently poor, also I did lack enough knowledge and experience.
Regarding the accuracy of these axes, my experience was that accuracy, good balance and ability to control had little to nothing to do with the presence or absence of polls. That was evident despite, or maybe even more so because of my lack of proper training and knowledge.

Since I work as a scientist, I like to analyze and try to understand principles behind phenomena. But because I work as a scientist, I also understand and value the ultimate importance of the real life experience. Not only mine, but more so that of others.
But once experience is acknowledged, it is still important to try to analyze it, because analyzed phenomena can be reproduced in controlled settings (experiments) to record consistencies and variables, distinguish subjective from objective and thus allowing to create facts, which can be used very efficiently to improve existing designs or create new ones. That this “scientific approach” is vastly more efficient than simple trial and error is attested by the technological explosion of the last 200 years as compared to the technological achievements of the whole previous human history.
This does not mean that experience is inferior to analysis and synthesis (“thinking”), only that that the latter ones are just as important too. It is the constant “tension” between theory and experience/practice which drives scientific & technological progress.

Regarding productivity/efficiency my experience does not count, because it is so limited and also my knowledge of how to use properly & efficiently these tools was, and likely still is, sorely lacking. :( :eek:

That is why I am so glad I found this forum where I can learn from people who have true knowledge & experience and are sharing it with us.
I have always admired the craftsmen/artists who could build buildings, structures, furnitures and things by shaping wood with hand tools, especially when the end results are true art forms.:thumbup: :thumbup:
Thank you! :) :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
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littleknife- Please watch the PBS promoted video " Alone In The Wilderness" and read the book "One Mans Wilderness", both about Dick Proenneke. Then you might understand why I am very unhappy about "the technological explosion of the last 200 years as compared to the technological achievements of the whole previous human history" The human race is getting too far away from the natural world and a basic lifestyle, IMHO. I was told recently that VR-virtural reality, was the next big thing, after the internet I guess. This would allow you to fell a large tree with an ax while standing in the middle of your livingroom ? Wow, that is really great stuff--NOT.

FortyTwoBlades- the poll less axes I used were original 18th century and 1930's Collins axes that were made for sale to the South American markets.
 
FortyTwoBlades- the poll less axes I used were original 18th century and 1930's Collins axes that were made for sale to the South American markets.

Cool to know. Where you trying to use them as you would use a polled axe, or did you adapt your technique to the tool? I ask because I know that when I first started off using poll-less axes I discovered that some of the methods I was previously accustomed to no longer worked or no longer worked in the same way I would have expected, and I had to find the ways that the tool wanted to be best applied before I really started getting the best results out of it.
 
Hickory n steel-I dont think anybody ever used Swell Lock on an ax until after 1999 an ax to grind. I was repairing chair legs and tried swell lock, and it worked. I had a couple of loose hafts from moving my axes from Virginia to Colorado. I put swell lock on the hafts and it worked ! So years later when i did an ax to grind I included it in the instructions. Is it necessary ?, not really, and I still hang most times without it.
 
littleknife- Please watch the PBS promoted video " Alone In The Wilderness" and read the book "One Mans Wilderness", both about Dick Proenneke. Then you might understand why I am very unhappy about "the technological explosion of the last 200 years as compared to the technological achievements of the whole previous human history" The human race is getting too far away from the natural world and a basic lifestyle, IMHO. I was told recently that VR-virtural reality, was the next big thing, after the internet I guess. This would allow you to fell a large tree with an ax while standing in the middle of your livingroom ? Wow, that is really great stuff--NOT.

FortyTwoBlades- the poll less axes I used were original 18th century and 1930's Collins axes that were made for sale to the South American markets.
Exactly!:thumbup:
 
littleknife- Please watch the PBS promoted video " Alone In The Wilderness" and read the book "One Mans Wilderness", both about Dick Proenneke. Then you might understand why I am very unhappy about "the technological explosion of the last 200 years as compared to the technological achievements of the whole previous human history" The human race is getting too far away from the natural world and a basic lifestyle, IMHO. I was told recently that VR-virtural reality, was the next big thing, after the internet I guess. This would allow you to fell a large tree with an ax while standing in the middle of your livingroom ? Wow, that is really great stuff--NOT.

FortyTwoBlades- the poll less axes I used were original 18th century and 1930's Collins axes that were made for sale to the South American markets.

Old Axeman, thank you for the recommendation. I have read the book and liked it. I will also watch the video.
I am not saying that I am happy about the way modern societies developed, but these historical processes are unfortunately not concerned with our individual happiness - or even survival.
We might not survive “progress” even as a species. I agree that contemporary humans are living a very unnatural way of life, and in the process we might destroy not only ourselves but also much of complex life on Earth as well.

I think if we are to take more control of the way our lives are shaped by the technology harnessed to serve the wealth, power and greed of a tiny fraction of our society, we need a better knowledge and understanding of this technology, meaning understanding how does it work, what are its benefits, limitations and dangers, and how different alternatives can be used to achieve a more natural and maybe more happy life for a large part of humanity. I understand that science & technology (including social sciences & technology) are just a part of this, with morality, religion, craftsmanship and art playing paramount role too.
I think “older” technologies should be known or even some of them actively practiced (like for example getting/processing & shaping wood with hand tools), because they provide a complex and satisfactory way to interact with nature, foster creativity, provide connection with our past and teach respect for honest work.
Also, one never knows when the high tech society malfunctions, and it is always good to have a working plan B to prevent total collapse.
That is why it is very important to pass on the knowledge and experience accumulated from experts like you to new generations.
Since you are an exceedingly rare expert of the North American axemanship and woodworking tradition, this makes you a living national treasure.

The internet & artificial reality are but tools, they can be used for good or misused for evil.
Part of your knowledge & experience can be more efficiently spread through the internet, than by printed books, VHS or DVDs.
Of course nothing replaces personal apprenticeship, but by using the tools of virtual reality, one might be able record your movements and it might be possible in the not too distant future for people to experience (at least to some degree) your movements and be something like your virtual apprentices.
Technologies and traditions are dead & easily lost/forgotten if they are not practiced.
I think the internet did help a little bit to preserve this knowledge by providing opportunities for interaction and learning, like this Forum. It connected experts like you and curious & concerned individuals, like me. Thank you for not giving up on us. :)
 
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Cool to know. Where you trying to use them as you would use a polled axe, or did you adapt your technique to the tool? I ask because I know that when I first started off using poll-less axes I discovered that some of the methods I was previously accustomed to no longer worked or no longer worked in the same way I would have expected, and I had to find the ways that the tool wanted to be best applied before I really started getting the best results out of it.

I think this is a central and valid point to our discussion.
Efficiency is the result of the tool being used with the proper tool-specific know-how.

This was built with poll-less axes (and without the use of nails) about 300 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizhi_Pogost

Could it be built more efficiently (i.e. with less efforts expended) with polled axes used with the polled axe-specific techniques?
I don’t know but it would be really cool to know the answer.
 
Hickory n steel-I dont think anybody ever used Swell Lock on an ax until after 1999 an ax to grind. I was repairing chair legs and tried swell lock, and it worked. I had a couple of loose hafts from moving my axes from Virginia to Colorado. I put swell lock on the hafts and it worked ! So years later when i did an ax to grind I included it in the instructions. Is it necessary ?, not really, and I still hang most times without it.

Well it's still an awesome video with perfect information ,my favorite is the trick about oiling the head so you can rub it down with beeswax 👍 I do it to all my axes and hammers as our swamp cooler likes to create rust ( dirt cheap to run so we stick with it )
I just wish my local hardware store had those rust erasers 😁
 
littleknife- stay curious & concerned my friend. For more axe info by someone I have known and respected for 45 years look up Douglas (Doug) Reed. Years ago he did a very good write up on using a broad ax for the Early American Industries Association. If anybody every hooks up with Doug be sure to tell him Bernie Weisgerber said he did not know shit about axes.
 
Hijacked or not this thread has turned into something very memorable, or one of the best ever.
Thanks to everyone who posted here for your thoughts, insight and knowledge!

IMMHO.

Rick
 
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