Comparison: The Umnumzaan vs. The SnG vs. The XM-18

[Jaytaylor]

My 2 cents: We must be on crack to pay this kind of mark-up.

I have no idea what you're on about?!?!

 

[flash900]

While it's unfortunate to see a personal attack show up here, I now understand the effect the reviewer's original comments in another forum had on some outraged fanboys.

I hope that we can continue our discussion about these high-end folders. John's review helped convince me to investigate and buy my first Hinderer, despite misgivings about the pricing.

That's exactly what one hopes to get from a review.

 

[Rolex John]

While it's unfortunate to see a personal attack show up here, I now understand the effect the reviewer's original comments in another forum had on some outraged fanboys.

I hope that we can continue our discussion about these high-end folders. John's review helped convince me to investigate and buy my first Hinderer, despite misgivings about the pricing.

That's exactly what one hopes to get from a review.

I've done many comparative reviews - they can be both interesting and controversial. To the fanboys, invariably a comparative review can be seen as a call to arms. I for one don't think that fact in and of itself is any reason not to attempt to have a civil discussion where we compare features and benefits of products which are reasonably comparable. I don't necessarily blame the fanboys for their charged reaction to my review - that's not really who my audience is and I can overlook them - "tune out the noise" so to speak. I've got thick skin after years of doing product reviews. What I do find reprehensible is that manufacturer representatives and even principles in those organizations would react in the way we've seen from both the Strider and Hinderer camps. I've not met Mick Strider, nor do I plan to. Neither have I met Rob Orlando (though apparently we're both scheduled to be in the same training course later this year). I have however met Rick Hinderer - meeting him is what initially sparked my interest in his products. I've not heard from him regarding any of the reviews I've done, though I did write to him over the latest incident with his employee Rob Orlando - no response. Rick strikes me as a pretty level-headed, even-keel kind of guy. So I'm a little surprised he'd allow what's happened to take place. Rick and I will be in the same training course in about a week and it will be interesting to see if any of this comes up at any time during the three day course.

Neither Strider nor Hinderer needs my help selling their knives, but after the time and effort I've spent promoting their products, one would expect a higher degree of civility and professionalism than what I've experienced from both companies. Again, very disappointing.

 

[flash900]

John's review helped convince me to try an Umnumzaan.

I compared it with the large and small Insingos, the Les George VECP, the Strider SJ-75 "Baby Huey," and the Hinderer XM-3 flipper.

I like them all for different reasons.

Or maybe for the same reason -- they are all beautiful with superb engineering.

I love the blade shape of the Insingos and the small is perfect for EDCing.

The SJ-75 is my first Strider. I bought it because I fell in love with the shape. The size and weight make for a great EDC.

The George may be the smoothest of them all.

The 3-inch flipper Hinderer is a perfect fit, almost like it was designed for me.

As for the Zaan, I got the latest Wilson Combat Startac version with S35V. It is larger and heavier than I would use for pocket-EDCing in my environment. It's unlikely I would ever use the glass-breaker. And it is gorgeous!

All of these folders are near-10s in quality and design. The Baby Huey is just a bit behind the others. The George, Hinderer and Zaan are pretty much tied for first place, IMO.

Those three are all relatively hard to get, with the Zaan being the easiest, depending upon what Chris Reeve is producing that month. CR also heavily controls the price to maintain it at MSRP.

Price controlling used to be illegal but no longer. In the past, I would be critical of such practices. In the current environment, it is almost praise-worthy. I have seen very little of what some might call price-gouging for any current CR models.

To most buyers, the George sells for $100 to $150 over what it costs directly from Les George -- for those lucky few who win one of the lotteries on his forum or can beat an early path to his booth at knife shows.

To the general public, The Hinderer is the highest priced of all these knives. It costs twice what LEO or military pay and double the street price of the other brands considered here.

The Georges and Hinderers are frequently resold in the secondary market.

Is the Hinderer worth that much markup? In my opinion no, not based upon design or materials. And what else is there? As I wondered earlier, are we on crack to pay that kind of markup?

But I also said that this is an addiction. And logic doesn't always govern.

As if to prove my point, I bought a SECOND 3-inch XM flipper -- same as the first, but with black instead of OD green scales. This one cost substantially less than my first XM.

Is that a bargain? Or did I overpay once again -- at least compared to the lower prices enjoyed by some lucky others?

As a cheapskate, I think I overpaid. As a collector, I think it was a bargain.

So thank you, John, for a fair and honest -- and enjoyable -- comparison of some of the best production folders on the planet. Here's hoping that we can have more such comparisons, but without the personal attacks you had to endure.

 

[Rolex John]

So thank you, John, for a fair and honest -- and enjoyable -- comparison of some of the best production folders on the planet. Here's hoping that we can have more such comparisons, but without the personal attacks you had to endure.

Thank you too for your own interesting perspective.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I did discuss things with Rick Hinderer a few weeks ago and was quite frankly disappointed by his response. Interestingly, Rick went out of his way to state that he "doesn't make his knives for collectors. The soldiers are their first priority." I interpreted this to mean "I really don't want your business John or you as a customer." Obviously I don't have any insight to Hinderer's true customer base. But I have to wonder how many LEO's and deployed soldiers can afford (even at their preferential pricing levels) a Hinderer? How many deployed soldiers would want to bring a Hinderer knife on deployment where anything of value gets stolen or lost? While Hinderer may make knives designed for a specific user, and greatly benefits from the perception that those users are in fact his primary customer base, everything I know about his business model tells me most of his customers come from the collector/enthusiast community.

After our conversation I promptly sold all my Hinderer products. He makes a great knife - sure. But there are several other great knife makers that actually have appreciation and respect for everyone who spends their hard earned dollars with them.

 

[flash900]

Thanks for the update, John.

I hope you were at least able to recoup your purchase prices.

 

[hoxhunbe]

Enlightening stuff, but it kinda bums me out. There are a few Hinderers I definitely want (and am willing to pay for), but it's never cool to be abusive or publicly shame/antagonize your critics -- particularly when they're your customers! Still, I may give them a shot down the road. Striders, I am only interested in the GG SMFs, but likely not enough to lay down the necessary cash just yet. Plus, I just bought my first CRK, so I'm content enough for now anyway

 

[mag1]

Thanks for that link. I always wanted to do a video of the 3.
All 3 knives in my opinion are awesome.
I also would rank, after carrying and using all 3 for over a year like this:
1. Hinderer
2. Zaan
3. SnG
I have never paid more than $385 for a 3.5 Hinderer, or $550 for a Hinderer custom. Never had a problem with 1, mostly because I got to handpick at a show. That is why I would rank it #1 out of all these three. Rich is a nice guy!
I just got lucky at the lotteries. If I had to pay $700-$1000 for one, no way would I. Rather an RJ Martin, which I have many. RJ is a super nice guy!
The Zaan, never once had a problem with any of the 10 I have owned. I always buy, sell, then re-buy one. Addictive! Well the ones without that disc, ugly!
SnG's, you kinda really need to hand pick at a show to make sure they are what you want. I have had nice ones, and ones with problems.
I haven't seen the newer versions yet.
All three are tactical, sharpen effortless, and for under $425 are worth every penny. They will outlast you!

 

[flash900]

I always wanted to do a video of the 3.

Do it!

I have never paid more than $385 for a 3.5 Hinderer, or $550 for a Hinderer custom.

Wow! That's what I mean about the dual pricing -- the rest of us feel like schmucks!

 

[007 Agent ZZero]

I think that it is really dissappointing to hear how little respect is left on the online communities. It has been well established that the Strider community is populated with thick skulled fan boys. Any criticism and it's out with the noose. I am very surprised that the same blatant belligerent reaction is now present with Hinderer. I have met many makers and Rick is one of the nicest most down to earth guys out there. He doesn't deserve that kind of press tarnishing his name.

That being said......... I think one very valid point that was made in this thread is that the collecability of the Hinderer knives has gone through the roof. I owned a full custom Flame gen 2 for about 3 months when the XM18 article hit Blade magazine and the fire was lit in the collecting community. I still own a 1 of 2 carbon fiber Flashpoint, hand ground, that will go to the grave with me. After owning everything from CRKs to Ouye to Martin to Steigerwalt one thing really stands out. After a certain level of F&F is attained it really becomes immeasurable by the average user. The majority of these folders are just capitol investment potential. There have been few and far between serious use reviews of these "hard use" knives because the average user can't really scratch the surface of potential use. Is cutting 20 cardboard boxes really going to show anything? I find most reviews to be entirely subjective and significantly hypothetical. Let's get back to good old fashioned straight talk.

I kept the Flame for about 6 months then traded it. Was it the greatest folder I ever had?? Maybe.... It was solid, had extremely tight tolerances, and held an edge. It had proven itself for 2 years in the hands of a serious user. Rick refinished it and threw in a new set of phos bron washers. What I always have trouble defining is whether this specific knife is essential. To me the answer was no, for my hiking and camping and hunting I would be just as well off with a Sebbie or other custom. Many knives I own are solid, tight toleranced, and hold an edge. What was unique to the Hinderer? Hidden details. Every possible edge was radiused scalloped and softened. There was not one millimeter of that knife that hadn't been scrutinized and refined by Rick. That is what amazes everyone, including myself. That same level of detail is what made CRK. The difference is the style Rick brought to the industry. The hitch for me was that I didn't find that essential to how well the knife would cut or how well it would wear over the years.

 

[flash900]

007,

Thanks for the thoughtful comments about the lack of meaningful reviews.

As to the hidden details and high tolerances re your Hinderer, I believe you are referring to a custom model.

The XMs are production models. As good as they are -- and they are -- they compete with Chris Reeve and Strider models that are more reasonably priced for those of us unable to buy directly from Hinderer the man.

 

[Ankerson]

Same with other knives in that overall price range as none of them are exactly cheap, but all of them are good knives so one will have to decide what they want or don't want, like or don't like.

I really don't think one is really better overall than the others as they all are very well made, so better would be more of an opinion as would be a buying choice.

The ZAAN with it's thinner grind behind the edge would be the better cutter than the other two as they normally come, but that's just basic blade and edge geometry working.

 

[Rolex John]

I think that it is really dissappointing to hear how little respect is left on the online communities. It has been well established that the Strider community is populated with thick skulled fan boys. Any criticism and it's out with the noose. I am very surprised that the same blatant belligerent reaction is now present with Hinderer.

You and me both - but it's clear that Hinderer and company don't tolerate criticism of their business practices or comparisons with other similar competitors.

I have met many makers and Rick is one of the nicest most down to earth guys out there.

I thought the same thing about Rick and still do. In fact, Rick being a nice guy was one of the things that drew me in to purchasing one of his knives in the first place.

He doesn't deserve that kind of press tarnishing his name.

Perhaps he'll change the way he treats people as a result.

Many knives I own are solid, tight toleranced, and hold an edge.

Agreed.

 

[Ankerson]

You and me both - but it's clear that Hinderer and company don't tolerate criticism of their business practices or comparisons with other similar competitors.




I thought the same thing about Rick and still do. In fact, Rick being a nice guy was one of the things that drew me in to purchasing one of his knives in the first place.



Perhaps he'll change the way he treats people as a result.



Agreed.

The business model is what it is and has been from the beginning, catering to the Military and Firefighters 1st so with the low production numbers of the knives there isn't a lot of them to go around for the masses.

The reason for the high prices on the secondary market.

Now if he doesn't like the comments then he could ramp up production and sell them to everyone for the same prices at the sub $400 range.

He created the issues all by himself so there isn't any logical reason for him to complain about it now as it is his fault.

So what I am really saying is it's really stupid to have an attitude about it when people complain and rightly so since he caused it in the first place.

 

[flash900]

The business model is what it is and has been from the beginning, catering to the Military and Firefighters 1st so with the low production numbers of the knives there isn't a lot of them to go around for the masses.

The reason for the high prices on the secondary market.

Now if he doesn't like the comments then he could ramp up production and sell them to everyone for the same prices at the sub $400 range.

He created the issues all by himself so there isn't any logical reason for him to complain about it now as it is his fault.

So what I am really saying is it's really stupid to have an attitude about it when people complain and rightly so since he caused it in the first place.

Well said.

 

[stabman]

I blame jerks who buy the knives at MSRP just to flip them for ridiculous profit.
The company puts it out for a fair price, but then catches flak because greedy dinks rip off their fellow knife enthusiasts?
Lame.

 

[Ankerson]

I blame jerks who buy the knives at MRSP just to flip them for ridiculous profit.
The company puts it out for a fair price, but then catches flak because greedy dinks rip off their fellow knife enthusiasts?
Lame.

There will be a lot of that due to the business model and the way it's set up so the greedy people will take advantage.

The demand is there for more knives because people are paying those ridiculous prices so one has to wonder if Hinderer isn't somehow profiting from some of those high prices they are selling for as nothing has changed.... YET.....

I just refuse to pay more than $385 for one period as there are more being made so I can live without it and with the other knives I already have I don't see the need.

 

[akadave2]

I have have had two SnG's, still have one, I have an XM-18 and I have a Ti-lok but have never had any other CRK knife. The SnG fit and finish on both knives was the equal of the other knives mentioned...easily. I carry the SNG but leave the Xm-18 in the case...bulkier than the SnG. I also had the SnG reprofiled so its more of a cutter. Dont rate one unless you have owned one.

I read that review as well. Its subjective. There is a way to deploy the SnG that most strider knife users employ...thumb snap in the blade cutout. I can deploy faster than my XM-18 easily. Most dont like the choil on the SnG either but ti works.

 

[Rolex John]

The business model is what it is and has been from the beginning, catering to the Military and Firefighters 1st so with the low production numbers of the knives there isn't a lot of them to go around for the masses.

Correct - and certainly it's Rick's company and he's free to run it any way he likes.

Now if he doesn't like the comments then he could ramp up production and sell them to everyone for the same prices at the sub $400 range.

He created the issues all by himself so there isn't any logical reason for him to complain about it now as it is his fault.

Bingo. I'll do you one better: There's no logical reason not to invest in the resources necessary to ramp up production UNLESS he's trying to maintain market scarcity. Hinderer would not be the first product manufacturer to take this approach - making their products appear to be more desirable and ownership more prestigious.

So what I am really saying is it's really stupid to have an attitude about it when people complain and rightly so since he caused it in the first place.

Agreed.

 

[Ankerson]

Correct - and certainly it's Rick's company and he's free to run it any way he likes.



Bingo. I'll do you one better: There's no logical reason not to invest in the resources necessary to ramp up production UNLESS he's trying to maintain market scarcity. Hinderer would not be the first product manufacturer to take this approach - making their products appear to be more desirable and ownership more prestigious.



Agreed.

Yep, it's his party and he can do whatever he wants to do.

Just don't complain about about it when the flack starts coming in. LOL