Comparison: The Umnumzaan vs. The SnG vs. The XM-18

I read the published review when it was first posted on another forum, which was a gun forum. Personally, I thought the review was excellent; especially the manner in which the Reviewer explained the metrics he used as his tiebreaker. Even though the Reviewer made it very clear that all 3 were exceptional knives, that's never going to please everyone; particularly the manufactures of the products that didn't receive the highest ranking along with their obsessed fan base.

On the other hand, enthusiasts not married to one particular brand (such as myself) would be able to extract value from the review and most importantly, the hidden (not so secret) read-between-the-lines message that a Reviewer subliminally conveys when they have high praise for all the products competing in their review; which is, BUY ALL 3. Most folks interested in objectively evaluating this particular knife review, are more than likely already knife enthusiasts who appreciate the build philosophies, quality and performance of the 3 knives. The review simply suggests to them a logical order (ranking) in which they should purchase them. Simple as that.

It's unfortunate that some manufacturer's aren’t' capable of accepting a Reviewer's comments about shortfalls of their product or simply differences between competitors. I guess that's just human nature, but could easily be mitigated by a company rep that possesses better communications skills.

It's also unfortunate that the Reviewer was personally affected to the point of selling off some of his premium knives. I guess that too is just human nature; however, that’s also easily mitigated by drawing a distinct line between being a knife enthusiast and being a knife review publisher. In other words, don’t allow backlash from your reviews (either from fan boys or manufacturers) influence the enjoyment or pride of ownership that you have (or had) with related products. i.e. I'm not selling my Harley if Willie G trashes me for submitting a less than desirable customer survey.:)
 
Theirs always two sides of the story now isn't there John....what we don't like is someone telling lies about our company and how we do things....why were you disappointed with my response? Because you didn't hear what you wanted to hear? Your still spreading shit..like us only putting out so many knives to manipulate the market..really? Do you know that for sure John? Do you have proof of that charge John? I've spent 25 years building my brand John and building a very good reputation ...I will not allow someone who just came into knives to soil that stellar reputation. I also will not get into a public shouting match with you,but since you want my attention you will get it now....privately ...

Rick Hinderer
 
I read the published review when it was first posted on another forum, which was a gun forum. Personally, I thought the review was excellent; especially the manner in which the Reviewer explained the metrics he used as his tiebreaker. Even though the Reviewer made it very clear that all 3 were exceptional knives, that's never going to please everyone; particularly the manufactures of the products that didn't receive the highest ranking along with their obsessed fan base.

On the other hand, enthusiasts not married to one particular brand (such as myself) would be able to extract value from the review and most importantly, the hidden (not so secret) read-between-the-lines message that a Reviewer subliminally conveys when they have high praise for all the products competing in their review; which is, BUY ALL 3. Most folks interested in objectively evaluating this particular knife review, are more than likely already knife enthusiasts who appreciate the build philosophies, quality and performance of the 3 knives. The review simply suggests to them a logical order (ranking) in which they should purchase them. Simple as that.

It's unfortunate that some manufacturer's aren’t' capable of accepting a Reviewer's comments about shortfalls of their product or simply differences between competitors. I guess that's just human nature, but could easily be mitigated by a company rep that possesses better communications skills.

It's also unfortunate that the Reviewer was personally affected to the point of selling off some of his premium knives. I guess that too is just human nature; however, that’s also easily mitigated by drawing a distinct line between being a knife enthusiast and being a knife review publisher. In other words, don’t allow backlash from your reviews (either from fan boys or manufacturers) influence the enjoyment or pride of ownership that you have (or had) with related products. i.e. I'm not selling my Harley if Willie G trashes me for submitting a less than desirable customer survey.:)

I try NOT to do negative reviews, what I normally try to to is test the knives and if there is an issue of any kind I contact the maker and sort it out before I post it on the forums, get sent another test knife etc.

I do point out some things I don't like or that don't work for me if they come up, but I just don't bash a knife just to bash a knife, I try and keep the overall review on a positive note.

Don't do any kind of destructive type testing anymore. ;)
 
I've done many comparative reviews - they can be both interesting and controversial. To the fanboys, invariably a comparative review can be seen as a call to arms. I for one don't think that fact in and of itself is any reason not to attempt to have a civil discussion where we compare features and benefits of products which are reasonably comparable. I don't necessarily blame the fanboys for their charged reaction to my review - that's not really who my audience is and I can overlook them - "tune out the noise" so to speak. I've got thick skin after years of doing product reviews. What I do find reprehensible is that manufacturer representatives and even principles in those organizations would react in the way we've seen from both the Strider and Hinderer camps. I've not met Mick Strider, nor do I plan to. Neither have I met Rob Orlando (though apparently we're both scheduled to be in the same training course later this year). I have however met Rick Hinderer - meeting him is what initially sparked my interest in his products. I've not heard from him regarding any of the reviews I've done, though I did write to him over the latest incident with his employee Rob Orlando - no response. Rick strikes me as a pretty level-headed, even-keel kind of guy. So I'm a little surprised he'd allow what's happened to take place. Rick and I will be in the same training course in about a week and it will be interesting to see if any of this comes up at any time during the three day course.

Neither Strider nor Hinderer needs my help selling their knives, but after the time and effort I've spent promoting their products, one would expect a higher degree of civility and professionalism than what I've experienced from both companies. Again, very disappointing.


The thing about doing reviews on knives in this price range is there are going to be very strong opinions out there.

Best will always be an opinion and they will vary depending on the people.

I have had dealings with Mick Strider and Ann Reeve, both are great people in my book. :thumbup:

Don't know and have never had any contact with Hinderer so I can't say other than the positives others have said.

That said the fan base of all 3 are very strong as would be expected and with any fan base there will be those who will be great and others that will be more on the rude side as it is the internet.

Most things on the forums can be taken with a grain of salt in the end.

Any of the 3 are good knives and one really can't lose no matter what they choose to get given the NORMAL not marked up prices (CRK $425, SnG $400, XM-18 $385) being close to each other as the quality is there.

What it really comes down to is what one will be using the knife for and their own personal likes and or dislikes.
 
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But there are several other great knife makers that actually have appreciation and respect for everyone who spends their hard earned dollars with them.



I think rick appreciates "regular customers", but generally agree with the sentiment that there shouldn't be selective selling of a product in some sort of pseudo caste system.

Its especially frustrating, I'm sure, to know that this system is exploited by carpet baggers.

I appreciate what soldiers and policemen do, but we all select our own career paths for personal satisfactions and abilities.
 
I think rick appreciates "regular customers", but generally agree with the sentiment that there shouldn't be selective selling of a product in some sort of pseudo caste system.

Its especially frustrating, I'm sure, to know that this system is exploited by carpet baggers.

I appreciate what soldiers and policemen do, but we all select our own career paths for personal satisfactions and abilities.


I agree, people should be able to buy the knives from him directly at that price knowing the wait time could be long.

We wait for customs and limited runs so for some of us it shouldn't be a big deal.

I also appreciate what LEO and Military does as I am a Veteran also (USMC 82-86) so even if had I stayed in I would have retired about 10 years ago so in the overall taking that into count my service means pretty much zero......
 
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What are you basing your comparison on these three folders? Is it price? Is it on a real world mission? is it fit and finish? Is it for resale value for collectors? Is it for Customer Service and Warranty? I think the answer to that lays in the money people will spend to acquire these Three Awesome Folders, people vote with their money.
 
What are you basing your comparison on these three folders? Is it price? Is it on a real world mission? is it fit and finish? Is it for resale value for collectors? Is it for Customer Service and Warranty? I think the answer to that lays in the money people will spend to acquire these Three Awesome Folders, people vote with their money.

I have had all 3 here in hand so yes, well the Striders have been SmF's.

I own and use ZAAN's and Striders, the XM was a loaner that I didn't really use and wouldn't likely as the grind was pretty thick. (Also the reason why I use my ZAAN and not really the Striders because the grind is thinner)

But like I said a number of times in this thread the quality is there on all 3.
 
I think rick appreciates "regular customers", but generally agree with the sentiment that there shouldn't be selective selling of a product in some sort of pseudo caste system.

Its especially frustrating, I'm sure, to know that this system is exploited by carpet baggers.

I appreciate what soldiers and policemen do, but we all select our own career paths for personal satisfactions and abilities.
True enough. I never particularly got the impression that Rick doesn't appreciate civilians. If anything, his decision to place LEO, EMT, and Military first is an obvious sign of a patriot. It's just that good intentions can have bad consequences even if it comes from Mother Teresa. I'd say the dealers and the market can take the blame there.

It's just the unique circumstances of Rick being the only well known knife maker to sell his knives exclusively to a specific crowd that created the huge gap in prices.

Aren't there firearms that are only sold directly to the military with no actual laws preventing civilian ownership that also see such markups in price when considering what military personnel would pay VS the civilian who gets it indirectly?

Maybe I'm just speaking out of my ass here, but the only feasible would seem to be if Rick stopped selling them to dealers and sold them directly instead, though something tells me that's easier said than done. I just assume even LEO, EMT, and Military go on that waiting list for a reason.
 
Theirs always two sides of the story now isn't there John....what we don't like is someone telling lies about our company and how we do things....

Firstly, I've never knowingly lied about any aspect of your business Rick. If you're going to call me a liar, then have integrity to quote my statement and show that it's a lie.

why were you disappointed with my response?


I believe I've already shown why I was disappointed in your response.

Your still spreading shit..like us only putting out so many knives to manipulate the market..really? Do you know that for sure John? Do you have proof of that charge John?

One of the areas of disappointment that I have with Hinderer Knives is the level of professionalism and respect shown to their customers. If you're the type of guy that likes to spew profanity, so be it. But don't do so with customers or in public statements like this one. Secondly Rick, I've never claimed any insight into your business nor any inside knowledge as to why you do what you do. Nor am I the only person who's wondered why you simply don't invest in more infrastructure and up your production, or pointed out that some businesses intentionally keep production low in order to maintain scarcity.

I've spent 25 years building my brand John and building a very good reputation ...I will not allow someone who just came into knives to soil that stellar reputation. I also will not get into a public shouting match with you,but since you want my attention you will get it now....privately ...
Rick Hinderer

I'd say you're doing far more to damage your reputation than anyone else could Rick - I've just shined some light on some issues. In terms of wanting your attention - I don't. I don't wish to have any further dealings with you or your representatives. The above statement could be construed as a threat. So be advised I wish no further contact with you.
 
The above statement could be construed as a threat. So be advised I wish no further contact with you.

Pretty big stretch to think it's a threat.
I read it as meaning PM's or e-mail.
That's what it reads like to an outside observer.
 
Pretty big stretch to think it's a threat.
I read it as meaning PM's or e-mail.
That's what it reads like to an outside observer.

I don't necessarily disagree with you - except that his response was written on the 7th. As of today, I've not received any PM's or emails from Rick.

I'm signed up for two more classes at TDI where I believe Rick as well as some of his associates will be in attendance. Whatever Rick's intent, based on my previous contact with he and his associates as well as his post in this thread, I've no desire to have any further dealings - unless of course he'd like to apologize.
 
Theirs always two sides of the story now isn't there John....what we don't like is someone telling lies about our company and how we do things....why were you disappointed with my response? Because you didn't hear what you wanted to hear? Your still spreading shit..like us only putting out so many knives to manipulate the market..really? Do you know that for sure John? Do you have proof of that charge John? I've spent 25 years building my brand John and building a very good reputation ...I will not allow someone who just came into knives to soil that stellar reputation. I also will not get into a public shouting match with you,but since you want my attention you will get it now....privately ...

Rick Hinderer

Hate to say it but this kind of response looks like it came straight out of the Strider manual of "How to deal with customers and Criticism"

WOW :confused::eek:
 
Rolex John said:
One of the areas of disappointment that I have with Hinderer Knives is the level of professionalism and respect shown to their customers. If you're the type of guy that likes to spew profanity, so be it. But don't do so with customers or in public statements like this one.

I'll assume you've never met Rick in person. To that end I'll bet you've never seen him interact with his customers. I have many times and I can tell you that you are way off base.

If you're that hyper sensitive to the use of the word "ass" perhaps you should block Rick so you will not be forced to read such awful terms.

Rolex John said:
The above statement could be construed as a threat. So be advised I wish no further contact with you.

Really....you must have forgotten your man panties to feel so "threatened". Cowboy up Rolex John. You'll be fine.
 
Oh good grief John....hahaha you really are a drama queen..haha...and no, your not the inecent victim in this...there is no threat there...i dont go on public forums and stir up drama like you do,if I have a problem I keep it to emails..that is what I ment..I am an adult...as for investing in equipment to ramp up production...you got a couple million to loan me to do this? it takes real money to buy cnc, ect...you want to take the risk of signing your life away to invest?..anyway, I'm wasting my typing fingers on trying to explain to you...

For everyone else in this thread......Really people...as for customer service and our overall reputation on how we treat our customers...our business model of putting our military, law enforcement, and firefighters first...have you heard widespread critisizm of my business before this thread?..the amount of times we go the extra mile for our civilian customers...you would take one post that I write in this thread and automaticaly say Rick Hinderer doest care about his customers? automatically saying that we cant take critisizm just because I defend my company and employees from falsehoods that is being spread. Someone comes on a forum and says things that are not my policy I will of course chime in and set the record straight..you would consider that not being able to take critisizm?..wow....have you all ever wondered why knifemakers will not come on to public forums anymore? why companies will not maintain public forums where you all can interact with your favorite maker...well, this is why...I am having to take the time to defend my company from something that is very silly, instead of making knives that my customers want...

Rick Hinderer
 
Oh good grief John....hahaha you really are a drama queen..haha...and no, your not the inecent victim in this...there is no threat there...i dont go on public forums and stir up drama like you do,if I have a problem I keep it to emails..that is what I ment..I am an adult...as for investing in equipment to ramp up production...you got a couple million to loan me to do this? it takes real money to buy cnc, ect...you want to take the risk of signing your life away to invest?..anyway, I'm wasting my typing fingers on trying to explain to you...

For everyone else in this thread......Really people...as for customer service and our overall reputation on how we treat our customers...our business model of putting our military, law enforcement, and firefighters first...have you heard widespread critisizm of my business before this thread?..the amount of times we go the extra mile for our civilian customers...you would take one post that I write in this thread and automaticaly say Rick Hinderer doest care about his customers? automatically saying that we cant take critisizm just because I defend my company and employees from falsehoods that is being spread. Someone comes on a forum and says things that are not my policy I will of course chime in and set the record straight..you would consider that not being able to take critisizm?..wow....have you all ever wondered why knifemakers will not come on to public forums anymore? why companies will not maintain public forums where you all can interact with your favorite maker...well, this is why...I am having to take the time to defend my company from something that is very silly, instead of making knives that my customers want...

Rick Hinderer

Other than not selling direct to customers nope, haven't heard anything.
 
But i do sell direct to customers :)...Military, LE, and Fire/ems..all other sales go through my network of dealers like most companies do...thanks

Rick Hinderer
 
But i do sell direct to customers :)...Military, LE, and Fire/ems..all other sales go through my network of dealers like most companies do...thanks

Rick Hinderer


Like I said. :)

And that's most of the point for those of us who are veterans that can't buy directly... So we have veterans from WW II to now that can't buy directly because they aren't currently active.... And don't even have the chance to own one unless they want to pay some ridiculous marked up price.

You could set the market price that the dealers have to charge (Cap it off) like others do who give the same discounts to Military, LE etc, but that's hasn't happened and it's your choice either way.

You can do whatever you want as it's your company, but that will always be a ding for some of us... And will always be an issue so we continue to buy other knives along with customs at a more fair price.

Other than that the knives are good, but if I did ever happen to get my hands on one I would have it reground right away for my type of use.
 
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Oh good grief John....hahaha you really are a drama queen..haha...and no, your not the inecent victim in this...

"Victim" is perhaps harsh, but I have been treated poorly by you and representatives of your company. You disagree - others do not.

i dont go on public forums and stir up drama like you do,if I have a problem I keep it to emails..

To be fair here Rick, I've tried dealing with you in several instances both in person and electronically. I've tried to give you the opportunity to fix this situation privately and you made no effort to do so. As a journalist, I'm simply reporting my experiences. A future article on ThruMyLens will detail my experiences in full.

Your post prior to this one indicated you were going to deal with me "privately." I've received no communication from you since. So it appears that you're being, to put it mildly, hypocritical on this point.

as for investing in equipment to ramp up production...you got a couple million to loan me to do this? it takes real money to buy cnc, ect...you want to take the risk of signing your life away to invest?..anyway, I'm wasting my typing fingers on trying to explain to you...

I'm a business man Rick. And I have a hard time believing with, by your account, 25 years of experience in the industry, your recognized reputation in the industry, and your past success record that you could not put a business plan in place which would demonstrate the ROI necessary to secure the financing needed to expand your production capacity. To be clear, I have absolutely no knowledge of your internal business and accounting practices. But from the outside looking in, your operation looks like an easy win for financing.

you would take one post that I write in this thread and automaticaly say Rick Hinderer doest care about his customers?

I don't think anyone is saying that Rick Hinderer doesn't care about his customers. But I think many folks have looked at this instance in particularly and are hard pressed not to be critical. Instead of recognizing that mistakes have been made, you continue to compound them.

automatically saying that we cant take critisizm just because I defend my company and employees from falsehoods that is being spread.

You have several times stated that I have spread "falsehoods" or "lies" regarding your company and employees. Yet, you've never backed up any of these accusations with any specific examples of what "falsehoods" or "lies" I'm spreading.

Someone comes on a forum and says things that are not my policy I will of course chime in and set the record straight..

I would expect that yes. But so far, all we've seen from the Hinderer camp is a lot of accusations, name calling ("liar," "troll," "drama queen" etc.), and unprofessionalism. You'll note that throughout this ordeal, I've been nothing but respectful and professional with your and your associates. Critical, yes. But polite and professional. Can you honestly say the same Rick?

If I made material mistakes in my understanding of your policies and business practices, I'll be happy to retract any statements made in error - I don't consider myself infallible. But I've reported nothing but truth to the best of my understanding. Even if mistakes were made on my part, I don't think that there's any justification for the undeniably unprofessional way you and your associates have handled this entire incident. Yet you continue to defend your actions.

you would consider that not being able to take critisizm?..wow....have you all ever wondered why knifemakers will not come on to public forums anymore?

Plenty do Rick. But I'm sure there are some out there that know they lack the self-restraint to maintain a positive and professional image in the face of the inevitable criticism which comes from being in business and make the decision to stay away from public forums. Given the behavior that's been demonstrated, probably the best thing you could do is keep yourself and Rob as far away from public forums as possible.
 
But i do sell direct to customers :)...Military, LE, and Fire/ems..all other sales go through my network of dealers like most companies do...thanks

Rick Hinderer

Finding one of your knives at a network dealer is like looking for a needle in a haystack!!
 
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