Comparison: The Umnumzaan vs. The SnG vs. The XM-18

[BWilson678]

But i do sell direct to customers ...Military, LE, and Fire/ems..all other sales go through my network of dealers like most companies do...thanks

Rick Hinderer

I've met Rick and Rob (both Robs) at Blade for two consecutive years and they've been nothing but stand up guys. I have two xm's that were bought at a very high price with my hard earned dollars and I've never came close to winning a lottery. I'm not a big "knife guy", but a fan of quality/enjoy carrying one and the XM offerings are second to none. This is all said to demonstrate a point - John and others: While it is your right to criticize Rick publicly, this does no good for any of us and you may disagree with his business structure; it is just that though "his business structure". Meaning its not your decision who can buy direct or how production is "ramped up" to meet the perceived demand. I personally put a great value on the current structure and inherent quality that it permits Rick to produce. - My two cents.

 

[giant1]

I've met Rick and Rob (both Robs) at Blade for two consecutive years and they've been nothing but stand up guys. I have two xm's that were bought at a very high price with my hard earned dollars and I've never came close to winning a lottery. I'm not a big "knife guy", but a fan of quality/enjoy carrying one and the XM offerings are second to none. This is all said to demonstrate a point - John and others: While it is your right to criticize Rick publicly, this does no good for any of us and you may disagree with his business structure; it is just that though "his business structure". Meaning its not your decision who can buy direct or how production is "ramped up" to meet the perceived demand. I personally put a great value on the current structure and inherent quality that it permits Rick to produce. - My two cents.

I have two of his knives as well, which I bought at inflated prices from private sales. Rick can run his company as he sees fit (that is a given).

.... But he should not imply that it is "just" a matter of going to a network dealer to pick up one of his knives because that is not the case. You can do that with CRK and Strider but NOT Hinderer because he simply does not make enough knives to supply a network in any meaningful way. I am not criticising him for that decision I am just pointing out that he does not supply the dealer network in the same way as other manufacturers which is what he implied in his quote below.

But i do sell direct to customers ...Military, LE, and Fire/ems..all other sales go through my network of dealers like most companies do...thanks

Rick Hinderer

 

[Rhind64]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

 

[flash900]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

Rick, this is what your friends and customers want to hear and it is the kind of response that will get you more good will. Please don't beat up on someone for writing an honest review. Thanks and best wishes.

 

[shunsui]

Vaguely reminds me of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and atheists.

 

[Jaytaylor]

Vaguely reminds me of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and atheists.

You forgot the Irish!

 

[Jaytaylor]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

New production model?.......you just cant go saying things like that to an addict!

My personal experience as a customer of Hinderer has been beyond excellent.

 

[MODiFiEDZ]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

Now this is a positive attitude in front of criticism! You do keep referring to your customers as only Military, LEO, Fire & EMT, but not us civilians.
I am a veteran & I've sent a few email trying to purchase a knife direct with no luck yet. I am a customers who has in the past 2 months bought over 13 XM-18's a few of which are customs. I've paid anywhere between $650 & $1650. I've never sold a single 1 of them so trying to buy 1 to sell to make $3-400 isn't what most of us honest veterans are trying to do. In fact most veterans I know of including myself have great paying jobs with benefits so buying 1 knife to resell isn't going to make a dent compared to what we make & spend on knives in a month. We know that you only get to buy 1 knife direct if we ever get the chance too which sounds fair but I've yet had the opportunity to do so, Rob did however recommend that I go buy 1 from an authorized dealer that sells a regular 3" for $900, nearly 3x the price I would have paid if I had bought a Hinderer several years back if I were still active Army. I know it's patriotic to only sell to Military but when I was in the Army & people asked me how much my Microtech OTF costs & I said $400+ many people were surprised & said I was crazy to spend that much on a knife so my guess is that even $385 is a lot to spend on a knife for regular military & LE, so if I had to guess, way more XM-18's are in the hands of us civilians & knife collectors than there are being used by active duty. Things being stolen was an often occurrence so most people were smart enough to stick with $100-$200 EDC knives.

So here's my rant if that's what you want to call it. One of these day I hope to be able to buy a Hinderer direct, I've even considered becoming a part time firefighter on top of my full time job just so I can buy 1 Hinderer for $385 or a custom for $550.

 

[Buffalohump]

Jim, I have to agree with you there. It never ceases to amaze me what people are willing to pay over the asking price for a knife, just because it is not that readily available. In the case of the XM, its not even that rare any more and yet the prices remain high. Its also a puzzle to me that people will pay almost twice the price for a production knife than a custom. Unfortunately I am not willing or able to do the same so I have not been able to discover for myself just what the magic is with these knives.

I did place an order with Rick himself back in 2006 for a 3,5inch XM when he was still grinding 'em out one by one but unfortunately it was never delivered. The rest is history. Such is life! I will say that it is encouraging to me that so many folks seem to have $700 - $900 to spend on a pocket knife. And not just once but several times over! That would indicate that the economy is swinging back around... let's hope the good news continues!

There will be a lot of that due to the business model and the way it's set up so the greedy people will take advantage.

The demand is there for more knives because people are paying those ridiculous prices so one has to wonder if Hinderer isn't somehow profiting from some of those high prices they are selling for as nothing has changed.... YET.....

I just refuse to pay more than $385 for one period as there are more being made so I can live without it and with the other knives I already have I don't see the need.

 

[Ankerson]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

There is no easy answer, I know that.

 

[giant1]

Jim, I have to agree with you there. It never ceases to amaze me what people are willing to pay over the asking price for a knife, just because it is not that readily available. In the case of the XM, its not even that rare any more and yet the prices remain high. Its also a puzzle to me that people will pay almost twice the price for a production knife than a custom. Unfortunately I am not willing or able to do the same so I have not been able to discover for myself just what the magic is with these knives.

I did place an order with Rick himself back in 2006 for a 3,5inch XM when he was still grinding 'em out one by one but unfortunately it was never delivered. The rest is history. Such is life! I will say that it is encouraging to me that so many folks seem to have $700 - $900 to spend on a pocket knife. And not just once but several times over! That would indicate that the economy is swinging back around... let's hope the good news continues!

I was curious to see what all the fuss was about plus I am a collector so I was happy to have them in my knife collection.

Personally I am not such a huge fan of the knife, it's well made etc etc...
But the ergos are not for me, it's too chunky in the pocket and the blade could double for a chisel.

Give me a Sebenza all day long

 

[Jaytaylor]

I was curious to see what all the fuss was about plus I am a collector so I was happy to have them in my knife collection.

Personally I am not such a huge fan of the knife, it's well made etc etc...
But the ergos are not for me, it's too chunky in the pocket and the blade could double for a chisel.

Give me a Sebenza all day long

Are you aware of the slicer grind XM and that it is available in the slim and petite 3" size........not chunky or a chisel.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, I have to agree with you there. It never ceases to amaze me what people are willing to pay over the asking price for a knife, just because it is not that readily available. In the case of the XM, its not even that rare any more and yet the prices remain high. Its also a puzzle to me that people will pay almost twice the price for a production knife than a custom. Unfortunately I am not willing or able to do the same so I have not been able to discover for myself just what the magic is with these knives.

I did place an order with Rick himself back in 2006 for a 3,5inch XM when he was still grinding 'em out one by one but unfortunately it was never delivered. The rest is history. Such is life! I will say that it is encouraging to me that so many folks seem to have $700 - $900 to spend on a pocket knife. And not just once but several times over! That would indicate that the economy is swinging back around... let's hope the good news continues!

I also inquired years ago and never heard back because I was not active Military anymore, OH well.

It is ridiculous the prices people are paying when they are still making more knives IMO.

I would rather wait for as long as it takes to get a knife directly if it was possible than to pay that kind of markup, as I have waited long periods of time for customs so it's not a big deal to me.

 

[Ankerson]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

Yes there are plenty of less than honest people out there that will take advantage and rip people off, but that's not everyone, some really do keep the knives and use them.

I do think setting the MSRP for the dealers capping the price while letting everyone know what that is would be a good idea like the others do so it would stop MOST or all of those issues.

 

[giant1]

Never mind........

 

[MODiFiEDZ]

I'm hoping to get more XM-18's and XM-24's out in 2013...including a new production model! Hopefully that will help the supply/demand thing. In the past we have sold direct to some former military...but its really tough because like even our current policy some people abuse it to just flip the knives...so just like the lottery sales at shows..there is no easy answer...I know your saying yes there is...make more knives...and believe me we are! Its just that supply just cant keep up with demand...and for that I am very grateful to my customers! Thanks to all of you for your support!

Rick Hinderer

If your worried about active duty & veterans selling your knives for double what they paid making a profit, what's the difference of selling to www.knifeart.com & other dealers just so they can sell them for $900+ making even more profit? I would much rather buy from an individual for $300 over MSRP than to pay almost $600 over MSRP from dealers. I think it's more patriotic to sell knives to people who are fighting or have fought for our rights & allow them to make a little extra money from a knife.
There are very honest people who even pass on the savings to the next person by selling the knife & not making profit, just this week I had got a new XM-18 for $385 from a guy whom I've never met before & he said he couldn't sell the knife for profit like other people do & it didn't feel right. Thank you very much Andrew!
I also see authorized dealers that sell the knives for MSRP or slightly more but they never have them in stock, instead of sending the extra knives to the dealers who sell them for the most profit can they possibly be sent to the dealers with lower prices?
Thank you Rick for your hard work getting you & your company to where you are right now. I never leave home without 2 XM's in my pocket.

The Umnumzaan is the second favorite because you can't beat the fit, finish & tolerances. The only Strider I've got is a new gen with the new lock geometry & it came with lock rock so bad that i can close it without touching the lockbar, I almost cut a finger off checking for blade play when it instantly closed, luckily I had my finger in the choil when it closed. So Strider is not even a 3rd for me, more like a ZT 0560 gets 3rd place in my book.

 

[frenchmade]

Well Im glad that was turned around. I'd hate to see Hinderer's go the way of Strider and DPX.

 

[Rolex John]

I do think setting the MSRP for the dealers capping the price while letting everyone know what that is would be a good idea like the others do so it would stop MOST or all of those issues.

Agreed. Again, it's Rick's company and he can do business any way he sees fit. But I find a certain hypocrisy in calling out your direct market customers (LEO, military, 1st responders, etc.) as was done with a policy change earlier this year for taking advantage of market conditions which quite arguably Hinderer knives has created...or at the very least allows to continue. Of course, the same can be said of the non-direct customer base like myself.

There's also an issue which has been raised which, quite honestly, has me scratching my head. Rick has stated quite clearly that they simply cannot keep up with demand for their knives - ostensibly the XM folders. He's further indicated that he intends to increase production to help meet this demand - good plan for sure. But he's also said that he intends to release a new model....

If you're at or near maximum production capacity to meet XM demand, how do you intend to manufacture an entirely new model which, if history is any indicator will meet with tremendous demand when released to the market?

It's not difficult to imagine that this new model will be woefully under produced relative to demand and subject to the same market conditions which currently frustrates many customers about the XM folders...while at the same time further contributing to the same issues regarding the XM folders.

A little transparency here might help the market gain confidence.

 

[Rolex John]

If your worried about active duty & veterans selling your knives for double what they paid making a profit, what's the difference of selling to www.knifeart.com & other dealers just so they can sell them for $900+ making even more profit?

An excellent question sir - one I've often wondered myself.

Incidentally I subscribe to your YT channel and very much appreciate your contributions to the knife enthusiast community.

I would much rather buy from an individual for $300 over MSRP than to pay almost $600 over MSRP from dealers. I think it's more patriotic to sell knives to people who are fighting or have fought for our rights & allow them to make a little extra money from a knife.

Another excellent point. I'll go one step further here. Put yourself in the position of the individual in that "1st responder" model that Rick sells direct to. These are folks that aren't in high income positions. I think in many cases where these folks sell their knives, it's because a significant financial challenge has arisen and they have few alternatives but to sell their prized Hinderer knife. Under these circumstances, can you really blame someone taking advantage of market conditions (which again they didn't themselves create) and selling their knives for more than what they paid? Would any of us do differently with our backs against a wall?

 

[Ankerson]

If your worried about active duty & veterans selling your knives for double what they paid making a profit, what's the difference of selling to www.knifeart.com & other dealers just so they can sell them for $900+ making even more profit? I would much rather buy from an individual for $300 over MSRP than to pay almost $600 over MSRP from dealers. I think it's more patriotic to sell knives to people who are fighting or have fought for our rights & allow them to make a little extra money from a knife.
There are very honest people who even pass on the savings to the next person by selling the knife & not making profit, just this week I had got a new XM-18 for $385 from a guy whom I've never met before & he said he couldn't sell the knife for profit like other people do & it didn't feel right. Thank you very much Andrew!
I also see authorized dealers that sell the knives for MSRP or slightly more but they never have them in stock, instead of sending the extra knives to the dealers who sell them for the most profit can they possibly be sent to the dealers with lower prices?
Thank you Rick for your hard work getting you & your company to where you are right now. I never leave home without 2 XM's in my pocket.

The Umnumzaan is the second favorite because you can't beat the fit, finish & tolerances. The only Strider I've got is a new gen with the new lock geometry & it came with lock rock so bad that i can close it without touching the lockbar, I almost cut a finger off checking for blade play when it instantly closed, luckily I had my finger in the choil when it closed. So Strider is not even a 3rd for me, more like a ZT 0560 gets 3rd place in my book.

Most of that can be controlled by RHK setting the MSRP that the knives would have to be sold for or they wouldn't get anymore to sell (Cut Off).

And this is taking into count that RHK already sells though their website as the others do also.

There are other companies that do this, both of them in the topic heading of this very thread.... Strider and CRK so it's not exactly a new idea and neither one has a problem moving knives.

So RHK has the power to control more of what has been going on if they choose to do so.