Comprehensive Steel Comparison Chart Attempt

[l1ranger]

I like the S&E, T&E, and S&T categories that you included.

for me, stain or corrosion is not an issue. its not a particularly harsh environment and I don't (usually) expose my knives to bad conditions for long periods of time without regular maintenance. so the T&E is a useful number in my head; more so than the total. not as an end all, be all number - but as a starting point for more research. I can sort decending by T&E and get a top 3, 5, or 10 to start looking into.

congrats on your upcoming degree

 

[bearfacedkiller]

You have put an impressive amount of work into it and for that I am impressed. Also, your estimations of the value of most of the attributes seem fairly close. Like others have said, quantifying these qualities is near impossible. You can generalize and make assumptions but that is about it. It can be used as another reference point but not a definitive data source. For that reason I believe you have produced something of value.

We put a lot of emphasis on steel choice for some reason. I am a steel geek and own knives in dozens of steels and often buy new knives just to try the steel out. In the end I have learned that what I should care about is that the knife is well designed meaning that the ergonomics, geometry and shape fit the application and that the steel also fits the application. The goal is to produce a package in which all parts, including the steel, compliment each other.

I guess that in the end I have moved way past the search for the perfect (or even my favorite) steel and come to realize that sometimes steel snobbery is a detriment. I have watched folks get caught up in lists like this and lose sight of the bigger picture.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Seems like a real exercise in futility!

If Gaston has taught us anything, its how to destroy the edge retention of a perfectly good chopper with improper geometry!

You might as well compare yourself to famous people, past and present and then factor in some of your friends opinions as well.

It would be a daunting task to scientifically test all these steels in the same way, with the same HRC, the same edge geometry etc. that I think we are stuck with pretty much only anecdotal information (as far as knives are concerned).
(That is, outside of the CATRA testing which only really tests one aspect (edge retention), and is even somewhat controversial in itself!)

Indeed, between a knife in 440A withthe proper geometry and a knife in cpm 3V with poor geometry I would pick the first

I have tried many steels but for my applications (camping and bushcraft) there are not any huge differences

 

[not2sharp]

All else being equal, I doubt that anyone, given a blind "taste test", can rank any 10 steels in the expected order. There just isn't a lot of appreciable difference between the steels and much of what we perceive is more likely due to the blade and edge geometry, quality of finish, quality of heat treatment and general ergonomics.

n2s

 

[Revolverrodger]

All else being equal, I doubt that anyone, given a blind "taste test", can rank any 10 steels in the expected order. There just isn't a lot of appreciable difference between the steels and much of what we perceive is more likely due to the blade and edge geometry, quality of finish, quality of heat treatment and general ergonomics.

n2s

I agree, especially if you cut mostly wood or soft materials.
The difference may be bigger if you cut rope all day but that’s not what I use my knives for

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

Edge stability is for me more important than any you list

I've never really understood what edge stability means academically. Does it mean that a steel resists chipping out at the edge, or that it resists rolling/indentation? these too failure modes strike me as different metrics, deformation would be equivalent to yield strength whereas chipping would seem to represent toughness.

Interesting to see some really popular steels at the bottom of the list -- mostly done in by their poor stainless number.

I noticed this too while making the list, I think that of the categories, edge retention is by far the most accurate and the corrosion resistance is the least accurate. It's nearly impossible to find actual scientific tests on the corrosion resistance of these steels so the numbers are a combo of anecdotal and me looking at the ratio of carbides to chromium in the steel and making what is really an educate guess.

I guess what is important to remember is that there are some really amazing Carbon steels out there, and if this chart were more representative then their toughness scores would be much higher relative to the corrosion advantage of the stainless steels on the list.

To me, this displays the weird situation we are in where the relative material sciences are advanced, but there are-few-to-no trustworthy standardized metrics by which to measure the characteristics of the materials. User experience is king here, so we are forced to try to eke out data from anecdotal evidence and questionably-useful material tests. It makes me wish there was a more profitable market in the knife world so that meaningful scientific research (peer-reviewed and etc) was well-funded and thus more commonplace.

Maybe this calls for a Go-Fun-Me for a rigorous knife steel testing setup, a CATRA-like test, a corrosion test and a impact strength test? I think i'm fantasizing outside of reality now though.

So for buying decisions, steel only comes into play after I have chosen the grind, the geometry, the handle. Even the sheath matters more than steel for some uses — take a leather sheath on a boat in the ocean, for example. Or kydex on a trip in the arctic.

That said, I still like to have an idea of what steels are better for what application, but it’s not so important to quantify scientifically. Just like I don’t have to scientifically quantify how much belly is on a blade to be able to choose among blade shape options.

This is actually what motivated me to make this chart, I was looking for a new EDC folder and I was overwhelmed by the choices on Blade HQ. I started poking around and got hooked! Once I started making knives it gave me a good place to start choosing a steel for the task intended AFTER I had decided on a shape and geometry I liked.

Yup. And this chart weights all attributes equally, which isn't true, and there is no discussion of the method behind any of it.

Go ahead and make the chart, but don't pretend its anything more than anecdotal.

Never have, never will. This chart is nothing but anecdotal and some estimations based on my casual research.

So K600 will be an 11 regarding toughness, 4140 a 12, 4340 and H11 ESR a 13, and Aermet 100/Premomet/Ferrium M54/NC310 should be a 14!

Ha, yeah I've some issues to think about here. In the mean time I'll do some research and add the steels you listed using the current standards.

 

[marcinek]

Never have, never will. This chart is nothing but anecdotal and some estimations based on my casual research.

Already kinda did.

Hello everyone,

I'm a big research guy, I love hunting for data and comparing it to learn more about a subject. This has lead me to try to put together a comprehensive steel comparison chart. I have almost completed a Mechanical Engineering degree and I am a hobbyist knifemaker so this (and a lot of curiosity) are my only credentials for the numbers I've arrived at so far.

I appreciate your efforts but saying your list is "comprehensive" and opening with your love of research and almost-completed degree implies rigor that isn't there.

Basically me saying "I like AUS-8 because it is inexpensive and easy to sharpen" (and I do say that often) is on the same level or rigor, I just don't claim it is comprehensive or post my CV.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

I like the S&E, T&E, and S&T categories that you included.

Thank you!

You have put an impressive amount of work into it and for that I am impressed. Also, your estimations of the value of most of the attributes seem fairly close. Like others have said, quantifying these qualities is near impossible. You can generalize and make assumptions but that is about it. It can be used as another reference point but not a definitive data source. For that reason I believe you have produced something of value.

We put a lot of emphasis on steel choice for some reason. I am a steel geek and own knives in dozens of steels and often buy new knives just to try the steel out. In the end I have learned that what I should care about is that the knife is well designed meaning that the ergonomics, geometry and shape fit the application and that the steel also fits the application. The goal is to produce a package in which all parts, including the steel, compliment each other.

I guess that in the end I have moved way past the search for the perfect (or even my favorite) steel and come to realize that sometimes steel snobbery is a detriment. I have watched folks get caught up in lists like this and lose sight of the bigger picture.

Ha I would say I have definitely gotten caught up! I'll be sure keep this all in perspective after hearing the criticisms people have brought up.

I appreciate your efforts but saying your list is "comprehensive" and opening with your love of research and almost-completed degree implies rigor that isn't there.

Basically me saying "I like AUS-8 because it is inexpensive and easy to sharpen" (and I do say that often) is on the same level or rigor, I just don't claim it is comprehensive or post my CV.

Understood, I meant that as I am striving for a comprehensive list, that's why I titled the thread as an attempt at a comprehensive list. I can see how I came off as arrogant or overreaching though.

 

[Twindog]

I've never really understood what edge stability means academically. Does it mean that a steel resists chipping out at the edge, or that it resists rolling/indentation? these too failure modes strike me as different metrics, deformation would be equivalent to yield strength whereas chipping would seem to represent toughness.

People use the term differently, but generally edge stability combines both toughness (resistance to chipping, cracking and breaking) and strength (resistance to denting, rolling and deforming). Some would add in edge wear.

I was initially thinking you should use edge stability, but if we know anything about a knife steel, other than its alloy, we know the hardness; and hardness is a pretty good proxy for strength. If you combine strength and toughness into edge stability, you'd lose some precision as to toughness.

Your chart is growing on me -- but my EDC is a 4-inch blade of your No. 1 ranked Vanax. Awesome steel.

 

[marcinek]

Understood, I meant that as I am striving for a comprehensive list, that's why I titled the thread as an attempt at a comprehensive list. I can see how I came off as arrogant or overreaching though.

I didn't mean to imply that you were being arrogant, sorry. We have seen these "comprehensive charts" before, and they lead people into believing, deliberately or not, that they are hard science proving what the "best" steel is. Putting things in a spreadsheet or graph does that.

We get "What is the best knife steel?" threads all the time.

It is important for people to know that there are measureable properties of steels that can be scientifically tested under controlled experiments and compared numerically (like ones in your chart), but the overall quality of a steel is not one of them.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

I supposed I should provide a general disclaimer to everyone reading this chart. The intent is not to crown the king of steels, or to compare different properties directly, it is more suited to saying that the toughness of steel A is higher than steel B by some amount. Nothing more can be said without more data an nothing more should be assumed about the chart.

 

[Dean51]

Can't be done. Blade performance is more dependent on blade geometry than upon the blade alloy. And alloy performance is as much dependent on heat treat as on the composition.

I appreciate what you are trying to do but I have to agree with knarfeng. Can't be done.
Just looking at edge retention on some of the steels listed.
H20HC and True Sharp are both 420HC, that comparison is heat treat not steel.
Victronox X55CrMo14 performance is real close to 420HC.
420-J2 should rank below all the above steels.
AUS-8 is close to1095CroVan, both hold a better edge than 420HC.
In order to rank steel just for just edge retention, would take identical blades and all steels heat treated for maximum performance.

Steel Edge Retention
420-HC 3.25
Tru-Sharp 2
Victorinox SS 1 = X55CrMo14
420-J2 3

AUS-8 2.5
1095 CroVan 3

 

[hugofeynman]

Good quality 9260 and 5160 steels from a reputable mill are tougher than 80crv2 and 8670, because the lower the carbon, the tougher the steel (this is not linear, alloy elements like Nickel also play a role in this subject). The steel source also plays a part on this, the cleaner the steel the tougher it will be. I wouldn’t put cpm3v so high in the toughness department. For me, 3v should be 2 or 3 points behind S7 and Calmax 1-2 points behind (S7).

 

[Mo2]

I would suggest throwing all your data out that you received from these random steel charts you found on google that aren't even legit and use the information from the actual steel data sheets from the manufacturers
Example here is a link crucibles PDFs
http://www.crucible.com/products.aspx
And data tested from users instead.

Ankersons steel tests
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/

Peter from Cedric Ada gear and outdoors
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit?usp=sharing

https://www.patreon.com/posts/17366331
His latest corrosion test and his channel showing his tests as linked in the link above.

Gary Creely
http://creelyblades.com/steel-charts/

Cliff stamp
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html

Spyderco
Has a chart but I'll find it later. I do belive it's in there pdf catalog if you search for it.

 

[danbot]

I would throw out anything by Cliff Stamp too.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

I would suggest throwing all your data out that you received from these random steel charts you found on google that aren't even legit and use the information from the actual steel data sheets from the manufacturers
Example here is a link crucibles PDFs
http://www.crucible.com/products.aspx
And data tested from users instead.

Ankersons steel tests
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ed-on-edge-retention-cutting-5-8-rope.793481/

Peter from Cedric Ada gear and outdoors
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit?usp=sharing

https://www.patreon.com/posts/17366331
His latest corrosion test and his channel showing his tests as linked in the link above.

Gary Creely
http://creelyblades.com/steel-charts/

Cliff stamp
http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html

Spyderco
Has a chart but I'll find it later. I do belive it's in there pdf catalog if you search for it.

All of these sources have been reviewed already except Cliff's, my primary starting point was from Pete and from Creely. I also used this chart quite a bit:
Vysledky_testov30.pdf

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

All of these sources have been reviewed already except Cliff's, my primary starting point was from Pete and from Creely. I also used this chart quite a bit:
Vysledky_testov30.pdf

www.fotogaleria.sandor.sk/ine/ostrie/Vysledky_testov.pdf

 

[Mo2]

Ahh since I didn't see your cited sources I didn't know this. Interesting. Did you cite them at all? Just asking without looking cause I'm busy atm.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

I would also be remiss not to mention Bluntcut and Big Brown Bear for their work on the subject...I had not cited any sources because honestly I hadn't been keeping track as I made this, it was a casual project up until I decided to share it here. But I used most of the above mentioned, along with dozens of forum discussions from Bladeforums, Cliffstamp's forum, The high road and many more. I should probably attempt to compile a bibliography though, it would be the ethical thing to do.

 

[Mecha]

This is part of why knives and knife materials are so fascinating. It's nearly impossible to thoroughly quantify them with math and strength tests alone; each use needs context and even then the user's experience is his alone. A knife by design and use is something that pushes materials to their absolute limit by virtue of having a blade edge, and a hand-held one at that. Then add heat-treatment into the mix. They dip into the realm of the incomprehensible, almost like magic.