Comprehensive Steel Comparison Chart Attempt

[marcinek]

I should probably attempt to compile a bibliography though, it would be the ethical thing to do.

Not only that, but it would give your anecdotal results some sense of credence to the very knowledgable audience here. And depending on the sources cited, it might not.

You are posting your "comprehensive results" to a bunch of steel junkies and some hard core real deal metallurgists and materials scientists.

That is what I have been talking about. Unless you come in and say, "I like AUS-8 because it is cheap and easy to sharpen." you are going to get peer reviewed up the yazoo.

 

[marcinek]

This is part of why knives and knife materials are so fascinating. It's nearly impossible to thoroughly quantify them with math and strength tests alone; each use needs context and even then the user's experience is his alone. A knife by design and use is something that pushes materials to their absolute limit by virtue of having a blade edge, and a hand-held one at that. Then add heat-treatment into the mix. They dip into the realm of the incomprehensible, almost like magic.

True and nicely put. But it never stops people from trying, does it?

 

[marcinek]

I would also be remiss not to mention Bluntcut and Big Brown Bear for their work on the subject...I had not cited any sources because honestly I hadn't been keeping track as I made this, it was a casual project up until I decided to share it here. But I used most of the above mentioned, along with dozens of forum discussions from Bladeforums, Cliffstamp's forum, The high road and many more. I should probably attempt to compile a bibliography though, it would be the ethical thing to do.

I hate to say it, but that whole process is kinda like trusting the reviews on Amazon.

"Some guy on the internet" is hardly a source. I mean, who is Big Brown Bear?!?

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

Not only that, but it would give your anecdotal results some sense of credence to the very knowledgable audience here. And depending on the sources cited, it might not.

You are posting your "comprehensive results" to a bunch of steel junkies and some hard core real deal metallurgists and materials scientists.

That is what I have been talking about. Unless you come in and say, "I like AUS-8 because it is cheap and easy to sharpen." you are going to get peer reviewed up the yazoo.

Haha a peer review is exactly what I hoped for, this whole thing was just for my own entertainment and to help me choose knives to buy and make. So if people can help me make the list better and maybe someone gets something from it then everyone wins.

I hate to say it, but that whole process is kinda like trusting the reviews on Amazon.

"Some guy on the internet" is hardly a source. I mean, who is Big Brown Bear?!?

In this case I think trusting people's reviews is the best we've got!...and Big Brown Bear is a custom knife maker who does some steel testing and talks about metallurgy and sharpening a bit on Youtube. I highly recommend him and Pete's channel "Cedric & Ada Outdoors", they are both excellent!!!

 

[bearfacedkiller]

I hate to say it, but that whole process is kinda like trusting the reviews on Amazon.

"Some guy on the internet" is hardly a source. I mean, who is Big Brown Bear?!?

That is his name on YouTube. He is Deadboxhero on here. He is just another knife Knut offering his experiences but he does make knives and does professional sharpening. More anecdotal evidence but I think he has credibility.

He spends a lot of his time using and sharpening knives and enthusiastically shares his experiences.

 

[marcinek]

That is his name on YouTube. He is Deadboxhero on here. He is just another knife Knut offering his experiences but he does make knives and does professional sharpening. More anecdotal evidence but I think he has credibility.

I know that dude.

And the name does add credibility.

 

[Mecha]

True and nicely put. But it never stops people from trying, does it?

Oh ya that's part of the fun!

There are metrics used for engineering and quantifying things for design, and then there is trying to explain what it means in real-world use.

For example, there is a dominant quality in titanium alloys with a real scientific-type engineering name, that a physicist/materials scientist friend hunted down for me, called "Modulus of Resilience." It's a calculus thing that combines the modulus of elasticity, specific modulus, and yield strength. I'm bad at math so that doesn't help me out much. However, it can be described as, "the work required to permanently damage something, and the single best predictor of impact resistance in blades," according to him.

I usually describe it as, "you can just beat the hell out of things with it and it doesn't want to take a set or a bend, and absorbs all of the impact and/or transfers almost all of it to the target like a dead weight."

Almost impossible to illustrate in words.

-EDIT: it was "modulus of resilience, not resistance."

 

[marcinek]

Haha a peer review is exactly what I hoped for, this whole thing was just for my own entertainment and to help me choose knives to buy and make. So if people can help me make the list better and maybe someone gets something from it then everyone wins.

But! And I will belabor this point no further, if someone gets from it that X is the demonstrably best steel for Y, like you claimed, then they do not win. That is misinformation and a disservice.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

@DeadboxHero has given me a lot of great perspectives on Nitro-V, Vanax, BD1-n CPM-154 and S-30V

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

But! And I will belabor this point no further, if someone gets from it that X is the demonstrably best steel for Y, like you claimed, then they do not win. That is misinformation and a disservice.

I don't think it's misinformation for someone wanting a knife for boating with $300 to spend to look at the chart and say Vanax would be a better choice than 420 HC because of the added corrosion resistance and edge holding. I can see how someone looking at the chart could assume that I'm saying Vanax is the best steel period because it has the highest total score, but that's not what the data is saying, it just shows that it has a great combination of properties according to internet reviews. It's up to the user to read the data and decide what attributes are most important to them.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

For example, there is a dominant quality in titanium alloys with a real scientific-type engineering name, that a physicist/materials scientist friend hunted down for me, called "Modulus of Resistance." It's a calculus thing that combines the modulus of elasticity, specific modulus, and yield strength. I'm bad at math so that doesn't help me out much. However, it can be described as, "the work required to permanently damage something, and the single best predictor of impact resistance in blades," according to him.

Sorry for the tangent, trying to learn. Is this "modulus to resistance" close to being the technical term for edge stability? The fine balance between strength and toughness that allows for thin edges and acute bevels? In practice I seem to understand edge stability but in theory I have never fully understood it beyond being a thin edge that wants to neither chip nor deform.

 

[marcinek]

Oh ya that's part of the fun!

There are metrics used for engineering and quantifying things for design, and then there is trying to explain what it means in real-world use.

For example, there is a dominant quality in titanium alloys with a real scientific-type engineering name, that a physicist/materials scientist friend hunted down for me, called "Modulus of Resistance." It's a calculus thing that combines the modulus of elasticity, specific modulus, and yield strength. I'm bad at math so that doesn't help me out much. However, it can be described as, "the work required to permanently damage something, and the single best predictor of impact resistance in blades," according to him.

I usually describe it as, "you can just beat the hell out of things with it and it doesn't want to take a set or a bend, and absorbs all of the impact and/or transfers almost all of it to the target like a dead weight."

Almost impossible to illustrate in words.

Cool. And kinda my point. Is modulus of resistance included in our new friend's comprehensive list? No. If it was, should it be weighted so that it is of equal importance in what steel is "best" with other properties? I bet your buddy would say "No, it is more important." Twice as important? Ten times?

Who knows?

So these things, in the end, are really no better than saying "I like AUS-8 because its inexpensive and I can sharpen it easily."

I'm not accusing anyone of arrogance....maybe hubris...it sounds nicer. You see something similar in a lot of folks who are building their first knives and come up with some "revolutionary" design. And the thing cannot work in reality. Knife design is hard.

Metallurgy is hard. Declaring one steel better than another is impossible.

 

[marcinek]

...I can see how someone looking at the chart could assume that I'm saying Vanax is the best steel period because it has the highest total score, ....

Precisely my point.

 

[Mecha]

Cool. And kinda my point. Is modulus of resistance included in our new friend's comprehensive list? No. If it was, should it be weighted so that it is of equal importance in what steel is "best" with other properties? I bet your buddy would say "No, it is more important." Twice as important? Ten times?

Who knows?

So these things, in the end, are really no better than saying "I like AUS-8 because its inexpensive and I can sharpen it easily."

I'm not accusing anyone of arrogance....maybe hubris...it sounds nicer. You see something similar in a lot of folks who are building their first knives and come up with some "revolutionary" design. And the thing cannot work in reality. Knife design is hard.

Metallurgy is hard. Declaring one steel better than another is impossible.

Exactly. If you want to beat the hell out of things with a long thin piece of metal, the Modulus of Resilience could be the most important metric of all.

 

[marcinek]

Exactly. If you want to beat the hell out of things with a long thin piece of metal, the Modulus of Resistance could be the most important metric of all.

Who doesn't?!?

 

[Mecha]

Sorry for the tangent, trying to learn. Is this "modulus to resistance" close to being the technical term for edge stability? The fine balance between strength and toughness that allows for thin edges and acute bevels? In practice I seem to understand edge stability but in theory I have never fully understood it beyond being a thin edge that wants to neither chip nor deform.

You know, it probably is, but in this case it's describing impact that is a sudden hard shock, a huge quick spike in force, rather than a force that is applied steadily or in little shocks like with a knife. It takes into account harmonic resonance deadening, which rapidly becomes more important as a blade gets longer and longer, and is probably dependent upon blade shape as much as material. A thicker, harder blade technically has more "strength" than a thinner, more supple blade, yet it the thicker blade could likely break first when subjected to impact, and in that case the thinner blade is seen to be "stronger."

The harmonic resonance thing comes into play with the never-ending lock strength argument, where a lock is touted as being able to hold a very large force that is steadily applied, yet the lock will fail with a spine whack or repeated spine whack-like shocks or say, getting tossed out of a car window at 40 mph.

 

[danbot]

And this is why Frank stated that it ( a comprehensive steel comparison ) cannot be done. At least for knives.
Deadboxhero's experience with say A2 could be completely opposite of Someone elses' simply because of geometry, HT, and the material its being tested on. I'm sure there is room for some general agreement about many steels, but nothing that would be near comprehensive.

 

[Ten_Mile_Knives]

Cool. And kinda my point. Is modulus of resistance included in our new friend's comprehensive list? No. If it was, should it be weighted so that it is of equal importance in what steel is "best" with other properties? I bet your buddy would say "No, it is more important." Twice as important? Ten times?

Who knows?

So these things, in the end, are really no better than saying "I like AUS-8 because its inexpensive and I can sharpen it easily."

I'm not accusing anyone of arrogance....maybe hubris...it sounds nicer. You see something similar in a lot of folks who are building their first knives and come up with some "revolutionary" design. And the thing cannot work in reality. Knife design is hard.

Metallurgy is hard. Declaring one steel better than another is impossible.

I opened this discussion looking for criticism so I respect your opinion. however I think you've missed my point here, I'm trying to show a list of rankings which are relative, not absolute to compare one attribute of a knife steel at once. edge retention should not be compared directly to corrosion resistance or toughness because a score of 5 for one does not mean the same as a 5 for another. that's why I never claimed that one attribute was " Twice as important? Ten times?" than another. and my poll question was not which attribute is best, it was what do you feel is most important. I was curious what knife users value the most when using their knives.

This touches on another important idea when discussing anecdotal evidence. many times when I look though technical charts like for CATRA I see people saying that the tests are only so helpful because they don't represent real life usage. I actually agree with this idea, I love a scientifically valid study as much as the next guy but there is no substitute for actual feel. And what gives a better idea of the feel of something than somebodies first hand account of their experience? I think that my fast and loose sheet of opinion based numbers should be used as a rough comparison and as an "amazon review" like you said. It fills the gap where some purely scientific charts don't. It may be less accurate but I think that it could be more helpful for someone who has already chosen a particular knife and has to pick a steel from a few choices as an example.

 

[Mecha]

I mean, one the the best ways I know of to break apart a structure or material is to shake it violently or vibrate it, as the harmonics build and clash within the object.

This stuff happens in a moment within long blades and even small ones.

 

[marcinek]

I opened this discussion looking for criticism so I respect your opinion. however I think you've missed my point here, I'm trying to show a list of rankings which are relative, not absolute to compare one attribute of a knife steel at once. edge retention should not be compared directly to corrosion resistance or toughness because a score of 5 for one does not mean the same as a 5 for another. that's why I never claimed that one attribute was " Twice as important? Ten times?" than another. and my poll question was not which attribute is best, it was what do you feel is most important. I was curious what knife users value the most when using their knives.

Look. You ranked the steels in your chart. And you did it by saying the three characteristics in your chart were equally important. Vanax or whatever it was was "on top" because it had the highest score. It won. Tops on your comprehensive list.

Saying they are equally important is no different than saying one is "twice as important" as another.

It's what you did. Sorry.

If you didn't want your numbers to be taken that way, you shouldn't have done it.

And if you were genuinely interested in what users value most...you could have just asked, instead of presenting your "results."