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He is @DeadboxHerowho is Big Brown Bear?!?
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He is @DeadboxHerowho is Big Brown Bear?!?
I opened this discussion looking for criticism so I respect your opinion. however I think you've missed my point here, I'm trying to show a list of rankings which are relative, not absolute to compare one attribute of a knife steel at once. edge retention should not be compared directly to corrosion resistance or toughness because a score of 5 for one does not mean the same as a 5 for another. that's why I never claimed that one attribute was " Twice as important? Ten times?" than another. and my poll question was not which attribute is best, it was what do you feel is most important. I was curious what knife users value the most when using their knives.
This touches on another important idea when discussing anecdotal evidence. many times when I look though technical charts like for CATRA I see people saying that the tests are only so helpful because they don't represent real life usage. I actually agree with this idea, I love a scientifically valid study as much as the next guy but there is no substitute for actual feel. And what gives a better idea of the feel of something than somebodies first hand account of their experience? I think that my fast and loose sheet of opinion based numbers should be used as a rough comparison and as an "amazon review" like you said. It fills the gap where some purely scientific charts don't. It may be less accurate but I think that it could be more helpful for someone who has already chosen a particular knife and has to pick a steel from a few choices as an example.
Sorry for the tangent, trying to learn. Is this "modulus to resistance" close to being the technical term for edge stability? The fine balance between strength and toughness that allows for thin edges and acute bevels? In practice I seem to understand edge stability but in theory I have never fully understood it beyond being a thin edge that wants to neither chip nor deform.
I applaud your heroic efforts . I don't think anyone will be harmed or misled by your chart . It's just one more resource and stimulus for further research and conversation .Hello everyone,
I'm a big research guy, I love hunting for data and comparing it to learn more about a subject. This has lead me to try to put together a comprehensive steel comparison chart. I have almost completed a Mechanical Engineering degree and I am a hobbyist knifemaker so this (and a lot of curiosity) are my only credentials for the numbers I've arrived at so far. The list has three main columns which detail the main attributes of knife steels on a scale from 1-10. There is also a "total" which just adds the values from that row, and three columns which add two of the three attributes so that you can find steels based on certain tasks.
For example if I want to see the best meat processing steel I might sort the list by the highest combo of edge retention and corrosion resistance.
There are three major problems with this list:
First, it is an amalgam of dozens of charts and graphs from manufacturers and knife users and anecdotal evidence. this means that the data is very fast and loose and comparing between companies and people always leads to differences in perception and representation.
Second, the values are on a scale from 1-10, when I first started the list this wasn't a big problem because there were only a few, relatively similar steels. Once it expanded though I ran into problems where steels that were only one point away from each other were actually 200%+ different in actual test numbers. for example the early list had AUS-8 as relatively highly corrosion resistant, then I added H-1 and it made the two look like they were similar in that aspect..they are not..So it is important to look at it as a relative comparison, not an absolute one; meaning that a move from 5 to 6 is not an 11% improvement, it just means that steel with a score of 6 is some amount better than a steel with a 5.
Third, the chart does not include HRC values, grind angles, or thickness behind the edge measurements because this information is almost never provided. So the numbers are a sort of average between multiple sources of comparison.
Finally, I am posting this for the sake of learning and improvement. If you have an issue with some number, than please provide a counter suggestion and evidence for why. Ideally I would like opinions from people who have the steels they are talking about. one final note, I do not think there is room for "favorite steels" in this discussion, there are so many reasons to love even lower performing steels so please only discuss steels in the mindset of data.
Final, final note. I would also like to start including price and availability data as a point of comparison so if you have information on this feel free to chime in. **this is category that I will be adding over the next few weeks using know constants like 1095 as baseline for price scores.**
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-Y-NBpwjIIHoAc9gfauaqNkKXziJR4YU2qhcjV-PSCA/edit?usp=sharing
I applaud your heroic efforts . I don't think anyone will be harmed or misled by your chart . It's just one more resource and stimulus for further research and conversation .![]()
My vote went towards toughness. Edge retention would be a very close #2. I am willing to sacrifice some edge retention to have a tougher blade that will hold its edge without risking chipping or other kinds of damage.
One other aspect I'd want to know is if the edge will chip or roll. Toughness doesnt really show this. Cause you can have tough steels that will chip instead of roll.I've done some reading so I am going to try and give this a shot:
I think toughness is the integral (area under curve) of the stress strain curve from 0 to yield, the young's modulus (stiffness) is the derivative (slope) of the S-S curve before yield, and yield strength strength is the point where a material transitions from elastic to plastic deformation strain at a given stress.
Resilience is a property which compares yield strength and young's modulus (res.=YS^2/2*YM) to arrive at the integral under the curve algebraically. So I think that resilience is the same as toughness, just different ways to arrive at the same answer?
strength is just a description of the stress-strain relationship in materials, you calculate toughness from this relationship and hardness is usually linearly positive with it as well.
Mo2, Thank you for pointing out my embarrassing double listings and same-alloy discrepancies.
I've done some reading so I am going to try and give this a shot:
I think toughness is the integral (area under curve) of the stress strain curve from 0 to yield, the young's modulus (stiffness) is the derivative (slope) of the S-S curve before yield, and yield strength strength is the point where a material transitions from elastic to plastic deformation strain at a given stress.
Resilience is a property which compares yield strength and young's modulus (res.=YS^2/2*YM) to arrive at the integral under the curve algebraically. So I think that resilience is the same as toughness, just different ways to arrive at the same answer?
Elastic modulus is the "description of the stress-strain relationship in materials", not strength.
Source: Mechanical engineer
Toughness is the integral up to the point of fracture, not to yield. Resilience is the integral up to the yield point.
In any case people ask here all the time... What is the best steel. And we all say there is no best steel. It all depends. When you have a chart that shows 11s people think that must be the best, get it and then have a huge hard time with it because of whatever reason. Too hard to sharpen, chipping, needed higher priced diamond sharpeners etc.
Some people just want Aus8 or 1095 buy the chart shows its not great, so they would never choose it.
Taking all these data points and then ranking them without info along with it just kinda doesn't really show the full story.
Hey thanks, That's how I hoped it would be looked at.
I voted for those two as well, I think that there is some slack for corrosion because what good is a shiny piece of steel with no edge!
You left out strength.
Well, there's a problem. We don't agree on the definitions of terms mentioned, and likely there's plenty others who will not agree with either of our definitions.strength is just a description of the stress-strain relationship in materials, you calculate toughness from this relationship and hardness is usually linearly positive with it as well.
T Tommy-Chi suggested a 0-100 scale could help clarify the ranking. I have also since changed a bunch of numbers after reviewing some steels per user suggestions and removed the 11's.
Do you think that adding in scores for price/availability and maybe sharpen-ability would help clarify that 1095 for example is not a bad steel just because M390 scores much higher?