Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

Status
Not open for further replies.
what exactly drives people into prepay a non-existing knife and waiting years before receive it? Survive must be the most astute knife company ever.
if you don't want to wait, just buy elsewhere, no?
 
Honestly, I placed the orders because the knives are very inexpensive for the build quality.
 
What scares me the most is it seems SK needed the preorder money to buy materials and pay to keep the lights on. What happens when or if too many people ask for refunds? There has to be a point where the ship sinks I would think. I guess I wouldn't want to be one of the last people asking for my money back. Once again, best of luck to those who are financially involved. It sucks for everyone but just imagine if they had grown at a more reasonable speed like Fiddleback...

Ellie and Guy have commented that the Starter campaign was their way of crowd-funding a business loan for the company to help it grow and grow quickly. They bought new production equipment including the laser-engraver, the blasting-chamber for the peened finish, new grinders, they were working on building the shop... Remember, the Starter Campaign lasted only through April, THEN they used those funds to invest in equipment and also materials:

Here is an Instagram post from July 2015: https://www.instagram.com/p/4rgd3fpbn2/
Here is another from August 2015: https://www.instagram.com/p/6SysB0pbvM/
Then the following month is the first batch of GSO-5.1s: https://www.instagram.com/p/7vkyHipbtM/
Next month, another batch of 5.1s: https://www.instagram.com/p/8jT66Kpbg4/

There are THOUSANDS of knives right there and a LOT of work to put in... Meanwhile, the 4.7s were already in production as well, and the 2.7s, and.... yeesh, maybe they did grow a bit fast!! They need to invest in more employees. On top of in-house production tasks, they have the website to operate and their customer-service "division" (formerly Ellie, now her trainee Jordyn).

Keep in mind, the knives are CNC milled elsewhere, but then they are finished in house. I don't know who the current contractor is for the CNC work, blades or handles.
I read that the Fiddleback production line is machined and finished at Larkin Precision (who also makes a lot of knives for other companies: http://www.larkinprecision.com/services) - they do everything from ordering steel (if the customer so chooses) to finishing the blades. If you think that the Fiddleback knives look a lot like the previous generation of the S!K line, that may be the reason. Nathan Carothers (the Machinist) makes all the handle scales for the production line. Peter's does all the HT.
Fiddleback was smart to move one model at a time, good advice for S!K in the future.
Andy Roy started making knives full-time in 2009, a few years before S!K ever produced one. He has a shop with apprentices and has trained a number of other knife makers, so certainly has skilled employees/professional assistants under his charge. He managed to collect capital and had his first production knife model in February 2015. At Andy's shop, all they have to do is build, sharpen, and ship to their dealers (I assume that they do that, or at least add the signature in-house, I actually have no idea) - no direct sales through their website, and even the "Fiddleback Outpost" website is owned&operated by another company: http://shbtg.com/index.cfm/blog-news/shbtg-announces-launch-of-fiddleback-outpost/

The Fiddleback production Bushfinger came out February 2015, Hiking Buddy in April, Camp in May, Runt in August, Duke January 2016, Kephart June 2016. Actual production time (purchasing steel, cutting, HTing, handles, finishing, etc.) adds at least 6 months to the timeframe, so we can guess that production started mid-2014 (let's guess August) and ~22 months later we have 6 models available for order form dealers. I don't know how many of each knife have been produced since the beginning, so it's hard to compare... but no pre-orders, right?

Since S!K held their Starter campaign (April 2015), they released the new 5.1 in 3V, 5.1 in 20CV, 4.7 in 20CV, 4.7 in CPM154, 4.7 in CruV, 4.7 in 3V, 2.7 in 20CV, and has just barely started shipping the 4.1s in 20CV and 3V. 8 models, or just 4 if you ignore different steels, produced in 17 months but they struggle mightily to keep up with demand and experienced a significant delay on all the 4.7s.

Look at the difference in time-frame: 6 models in 22 months vs 8 (or 4) in 17 months. Even if you limit S!K's model numbers to 4 (which is a little unfair), their over-all rate of production is 4.25 months per model, while Fiddleback's production line is at 3.67 per model and they do significantly less in-house work on the knives, don't bother much with customer-service matters, and have more experienced production staff in their shop. You see? Fiddleback grew over the course of the last 7-8 years and the production line is new as of 2015. They have more staff than S!K working on their products. S!K was effectively reborn in 2015 after the move, has a smaller in-house production team but more work to do on the products, hit some major delays on the 4.7s, but the only thing that they cannot keep pace with is demand.

Keep perspective. S!K is bad at predicting shipping estimates. They hit production delays. And yet they are STILL producing knives at a fairly good clip given their size, production numbers, level of quality, and in-house tasks. The problems people have are that they already paid for their knife, and so delays on delivery are highly exasperating, particularly if the delivery estimate was way off at the time of payment and the S!K team is slow to respond to e-mails. But they are still at work, people, and the work continues, and the demand remains.

Regarding a ship "sinking", there is too much demand. Everything that they make sells. Someone asks for a refund, their knife goes back on the market and then sells again. *shrug* The thing is, right now they have assets tied-up in un-cut steel as well as knives to list as factory seconds (cut, HT'd, and being finished). If stuff stopped selling, there might be an issue and THEN (only then) would the ship be sold to another company (e.g. Benchmade has been known to buy knife companies) - I don't think it would sink nor would those waiting on a GSO-8 have anything to worry about, but that is pure speculation.

In summary, WHY are people "scared"? There is a demand that the company "turn things around". If they just stop taking money without being able to stick to a delivery estimate, wouldn't that be the end of it? The offering of pre-orders at all gives the semblance of needing to offer pre-orders to stay in business. So why not stop with the pre-orders?
Perhaps because demand for the option outweighs concerns about delays? Are there any F2nds available on the site right now? If so, how long until they sell-out? *shrug*

I'm not worried, nor am I scared about my investment not coming to fruition. But it certainly is interesting to follow S!K through its growing pains. :)
 
Honestly, I placed the orders because the knives are very inexpensive for the build quality.

To be sure — they do seem like really stellar knives, particularly at the cost. They do well at the minimalist/functional design niche, the materials choices are great (I recall when they were getting started with CPM3V that it wasn't as popular a steel as it is now, so that set them apart at the time), and they do seem to really take progressive, incremental improvement seriously. The handle upgrades, process upgrades, heat treat upgrades, etc. do evince an obsession with improving the product that is pretty attractive.

The flip side is that the general feeling is that they've put a lot more thought and effort into improving the product than into improving the business, and that's really hurting their reputation and credibility. Which is a huge bummer, but... you buys the ticket, you takes the ride, I guess.

I hope they sort it out.

I was searching for something unrelated earlier today, however, and found a thread from 2014 where people were griping about the same stuff, so it seems they don't have a knack for managing this kind of sentiment (and/or the factors leading to it).
 
Last edited:
Molletta is a heck of a designer, that Enki is one of his models :thumbup: But yes, pricey for a production knife.

Yeah, it's all relative — the price is decent enough if you're in Europe, I guess. Also, shelf stock exists. Survive's a bad reference point for pricing (ie. it's way too low given the level of scrutiny, materials, etc.), and that's probably part of their problem. Hell, even benchmade sells fixed blades that cost more than GSOs do, with lesser materials, and BM isn't exactly known for price-competitiveness.

Anyways, yeah — Moletta is a heck of a designer :) I'm pretty intrigued by the handles on the Enki and their M5/M7 knives. Look super comfortable.

Also, I think the Enki, being a 'knife research' knife, is actually designed by a different guy, who's company is called "knife research". Can't recall his name, but he's friends with Moletta, I think. For example, the Moletta/Lionsteel M7 started out as another Knife Research knife: the "Legion". Possible that the Enki will evolve into a less expensive regular-production Lionsteel too.

Aaaaaaand back to our regularly scheduled programming...
 
Yeah, it's all relative — the price is decent enough if you're in Europe, I guess. Also, shelf stock exists. Survive's a bad reference point for pricing (ie. it's way too low given the level of scrutiny, materials, etc.), and that's probably part of their problem. Hell, even benchmade sells fixed blades that cost more than GSOs do, with lesser materials, and BM isn't exactly known for price-competitiveness.

Anyways, yeah — Moletta is a heck of a designer :) I'm pretty intrigued by the handles on the Enki and their M5/M7 knives. Look super comfortable.

Also, I think the Enki, being a 'knife research' knife, is actually designed by a different guy, who's company is called "knife research". Can't recall his name, but he's friends with Moletta, I think. For example, the Moletta/Lionsteel M7 started out as another Knife Research knife: the "Legion". Possible that the Enki will evolve into a less expensive regular-production Lionsteel too.

Aaaaaaand back to our regularly scheduled programming...

I know it belongs in "General", but I am pretty sure that he designed all of them for Knife Research - the Carthago, the Rasul, the Iago, the Legion, the Enki, etc. His real name is Michele Pensato, and he is a member on BF. I actually encountered him because of his interest in Busse knives. Old 2010 thread on the Legion: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/800021-New-Collaboration-with-KnifeResearch

If i were Italian, I'd be all over Molletta's work :thumbup: Lionsteel is king over there, as far as I'm concerned. In Spain, I think it's Muela producing both high and low end knives, I encourage people to check them out :thumbup: I don't know who reigns in France, but ehere used to be a lot of French knife companies... Eastern-bloc, I give up on companies and just buy from one of the Czech or Croatian or Polish (etc.) makers that frequent the sale-area, there really seem to be a lot with designs that appeal to me (and again, no real wait beyond shipping/customs). You can find some there peddling knives in Vanadis4E as well as Sleipner, etc. for less than LionSteel stuff

Was it you who mentioned Gollik? People reading this should search his name on BF and pull up his sale threads. For example: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-GOLLIK-Vanadis-4-Extra-outdoor-utility-knife
Another is Jamall. I take issue with his use of the Busse trademark on some designs, but otherwise pretty ncie looking stuff: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...rnalski-Knives-NEW-knives-Shipping-still-FREE
There are also a lot of Eastern-bloc makers of more traditional stuff that is great, one being Milan Mozolic.

But back to Survive!, I was actually researching which Molletta knife to get when Guy's designs came on the scene. And his response to customer suggestions regarding design 'improvements' has really been outstanding in many ways. He originally just wanted to be a knife-designer working for a company (or so his bio said) but dissatisfaction with level of quality is what drove him to try his own company instead. The poor guy needed a business partner and, evidently, the original choice turned out to be a lemon, using S!K funds to pay for other business endeavors :thumbdn: Now we all get to see him struggle amidst the demand for more and faster. I wonder if Guy has received offers from other companies to buy S!K ... LionSteel picked up Molletta, does KnifeResearch even exist anymore? The Survive! website still mentions the "SK" line of knives... I sincerely wonder if one day we'll see a Buck or Benchmade version of the 5.1, 4.7, 4.1, etc. My old-fashioned self wants it to be the former, which would probably also be cheaper, but I suspect Benchmade may be a better choice for quality control...
 
Last edited:
My concern regarding their production schedule as displayed on the Survive website, is that they are working on a number of models in the finishing stages, but behind that is just uncut steel. When they finish what they have in house, are they just going to wait for the others to come through. Unless the inventory they have in the finishing stages will keep them busy for the next 6 months, it would seem like a better plan to get these processes moving.
 
My concern regarding their production schedule as displayed on the Survive website, is that they are working on a number of models in the finishing stages, but behind that is just uncut steel. When they finish what they have in house, are they just going to wait for the others to come through. Unless the inventory they have in the finishing stages will keep them busy for the next 6 months, it would seem like a better plan to get these processes moving.

I agree that there should be a steady flow of materials to work on in the shop and at this point I think there is WAY more than enough to keep Guy and company out of trouble. Knives are sharpened one at a time so even as the 4.7's finish and progress is made on 2.7's, the hugely popular 4.1's will still take some time. Knowing that, I think it's pretty smart to put a pause on some of the out-of-shop work. I'm sure as they work through what they have we'll see the sheets of steel move into the various stages again.
 
I agree that there should be a steady flow of materials to work on in the shop and at this point I think there is WAY more than enough to keep Guy and company out of trouble. Knives are sharpened one at a time so even as the 4.7's finish and progress is made on 2.7's, the hugely popular 4.1's will still take some time. Knowing that, I think it's pretty smart to put a pause on some of the out-of-shop work. I'm sure as they work through what they have we'll see the sheets of steel move into the various stages again.

And he's got to get to work on the 7's too...

... GSO-7/7: Blades are at the SURVIVE! Workshop. Presale available now!
 
I agree that there should be a steady flow of materials to work on in the shop and at this point I think there is WAY more than enough to keep Guy and company out of trouble. Knives are sharpened one at a time so even as the 4.7's finish and progress is made on 2.7's, the hugely popular 4.1's will still take some time. Knowing that, I think it's pretty smart to put a pause on some of the out-of-shop work. I'm sure as they work through what they have we'll see the sheets of steel move into the various stages again.

Have external suppliers ever really been the bottleneck? Honest question, that —*I'm not 100% familiar with the history of production snags at SK!, so just curious if they're predominantly internal, external, or both.
 
Have external suppliers ever really been the bottleneck? Honest question, that —*I'm not 100% familiar with the history of production snags at SK!, so just curious if they're predominantly internal, external, or both.

I can't imagine that has ever been the case. Sorry if I got too rambly, but I was trying to say the bottle neck is sharpening and finishing, so they can get the 3.5's cut whenever the shop is moving along without any backlog.

EDIT: I don't know what I'm talking about. See chiral's post :D
 
Last edited:
Have external suppliers ever really been the bottleneck? Honest question, that —*I'm not 100% familiar with the history of production snags at SK!, so just curious if they're predominantly internal, external, or both.

Both.

There were significant delays in previous runs due to delays with the sheath maker, created a bottleneck.

One of the Berger grinders went down at the heavy-machiners' on another run, also created a bottleneck.

The 4.7s evidently had some issues this run, but I gather those issues were being dealt with entirely in house, so this time the delay has been significantly in-house. Remember that Guy actually used starter-funds to purchase equipment to do some of the work previously done by contractors, making an effort to reduce the bottle-necking anywhere besides the S!K shop. He quit the stone-wash provided by the contractor in order to move surface finishing in-house and make it more consistent. Please remember that S!K is dealing with the product as they receive it from the heavy-machining and then heat-treatment. If some of the blades end up with a wonky primary grind or handle dimensions, or if some of the handle scales are machined a bit too off-spec, the S!K-crew tries to solve the issue in-house = a lot more hand-work than just slapping on the scales and sharpening. That kind of bottle-neck is pretty harsh for such a small crew. This one wins over previous production delays and it would not surprise me if folk don't remember those from before.
 
what exactly drives people into prepay a non-existing knife and waiting years before receive it? Survive must be the most astute knife company ever.
if you don't want to wait, just buy elsewhere, no?

Ding I did not fall for that shit 2 years ago. To me when I could not just go out and buy one something seemed strange. We are not talking Damascus, mammoth one off customs here. Water jetted blanks, outside heat treating, cnc handles. Is it that hard? Bark River seems to bang out a lot of those type blades. If there is low supply there is high demand. economics.
 
Ding I did not fall for that shit 2 years ago. To me when I could not just go out and buy one something seemed strange. We are not talking Damascus, mammoth one off customs here. Water jetted blanks, outside heat treating, cnc handles. Is it that hard? Bark River seems to bang out a lot of those type blades. If there is low supply there is high demand. economics.

This isn't the Bark River forum. Nor is it the "Woo I'm smarter than Survive!Knife customers" forum.
 
Ding I did not fall for that shit 2 years ago. To me when I could not just go out and buy one something seemed strange. We are not talking Damascus, mammoth one off customs here. Water jetted blanks, outside heat treating, cnc handles. Is it that hard? Bark River seems to bang out a lot of those type blades. If there is low supply there is high demand. economics.
Speaking of Bark River, here's a 3V Ambush Tundra they made next to some S!K's. See that huge bevel? That's at 20 dps. It's so steep of a grind it is ridiculously obtuse.



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top