Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

[Silver Needle]

Has anyone here considered filing a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and/or the Attorney General about these matters?

This is a controversial thread and some of us get a little touchy and I'm sure we can all agree to be polite. With that said, your post without context was hard to interpret your intent. Now that we're all on the same page I would hope we don't have to go to such extreme lengths. Like Karoi and others, we can send a message with how we spend (or don't spend) our money. As much as I want to get the knives I have on order, I'm sure SURVIVE! wants to have a steady and prosperous business.

I agree that I want SURVIVE! to prosper and also that they should be straight with customers. I'm hoping for some really good news in the First Friday Newsletter about the future.

 

[Tinbanger]

Has anyone actually been denied a refund? If you can't wait any longer just ask for a refund.

 

[Vernal2014]

Has anyone actually been denied a refund? If you can't wait any longer just ask for a refund.

Not that I have seen and I hope they never have to deny a refund.

 

[mlmcasual]

Not that I have seen and I hope they never have to deny a refund.

If they denied refund(s) it would be a real problem with the FTC and things would probably grind to a halt altogether.

As many here have said, I agree that asking/receiving a refund is the most effective way towards resolution.

Regarding the FTC, complaining to the FTC is bringing in a hammer you don't know which way it would swing. Would they say, Hey- SK get your house in order or we will fine you? Would they do nothing? Or would they just go bulldog and fine the holy hell out SK and grab all your preorder money (to pay the fines) and you have no chance at EVER seeing your knife and money.
The FTC has a staff of lawyers backed by federal law. They provide warnings of what they can do to Merchants not on compliance with Federal Merchandice Rules.

Why You Should Comply with the Rule
Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued
by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary
civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation
(any time during the five years preceding the
filing of the complaint), and consumer redress
(any time during the three years preceding the
filing of the complaint). When the mails are
involved, the Postal Service also has authority
to take action for problems such as non-delivery.
State law enforcement agencies can take
action for violating state consumer protection
laws. Apart from this, your failure to ship on
time, or your failure to notify your customers
promptly about delays and to obtain their
consent to the delays, or your failure to make
full and prompt refunds when your customers
do not consent to delayed shipment, can
adversely affect your business by discouraging
repeat purchases. Accordingly, most business
regard compliance with the Rule as simply
good business practice.

 

[Karoi]

If they denied refund(s) it would be a real problem with the FTC and things would probably grind to a halt altogether. My fear on someone complaining to the FTC (as just a hypothetical) is bringing in a hammer you don't know which way it would swing. Would they say, Hey- SK get your house in order or we will fine you? Would they do nothing? Or would they just go bulldog and fine the holy hell out SK and grab all your preorder money (to pay the fines) and you have no chance at EVER seeing your knife and money.
The FTC has a staff of lawyers backed by federal law than follow up on complaints and go after those in violation of retail law. They provide warnings,

Well then.......I really hope no one makes a complaint so that the FTC gets involved and unleashes their army of lawyers on this poor little business!

I'd rather just wait patiently for my blades as opposed to not getting the money back from my other 2 orders, or worse, not seeing these blades at all

 

[mlmcasual]

Yea, me personally, I would rather handle things directly with SK who have always been good about getting you a refund if the knives get delayed and you can't wait. FTC seems scorched earth to me and could really screw over not not just SK, but preorders. No one wants to see anyone screwed over by the govt.

 

[MarthaStewart]

From the FTC website:


Your Rights When Shopping by Phone, Mail or Online

The Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule applies to most goods you order by mail, phone, fax, or online. It requires sellers to have a reasonable basis for claiming they can ship an order within a certain time and details what sellers should do if there is a delay.

Ship Dates
•By law, a seller should ship your order within the time stated in its ads or over the phone. If the seller doesn’t promise a time, you can expect it to ship your order within 30 days.
•The shipment “clock” begins when the seller receives a “properly completed order.” That includes your name, address and payment (check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account — whether the account is charged at that time or not).
•If the seller doesn’t promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the seller has an additional 20 days (50 days total) to establish the account and ship the merchandise.

Delays

If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free — for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is 30 days or less — it’s assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is more than 30 days — the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.

If the seller can’t meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.
•The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
•If you don’t respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.

Refunds

If you pay by cash, check or money order, or a non-seller credit card, the seller must give you a refund within seven working days after the order is canceled.

If you pay by credit card where the seller is the card issuer, the seller must credit your account within one billing cycle after the order is canceled.

 

[Karoi]

Unfortunately we are all at the mercy of Guys “schedule”, and he’s probably the only person on planet earth who has half an idea (if any) of what that is.
In my honest and not so humble opinion, the best way(s) for SURVIVE! to improve production is to make a few small sacrifices to the quality of its products to save time AND/OR raise the prices of these products which will allow Guy and Ellie to hire more employees to distribute their workload.

I personally don’t mind paying an extra 10-15% if the end result is that my blade gets shipped after 6-12 months instead of 17 months and counting…………………………….
I also really don’t mind if that blade has a few minor blemishes which does not affect the function/performance of the blade. I realize that there are 2nds on offer, and I probably would have rather purchased one of these if I had hindsight. Many of these so called factory 2nds seem to be fit for a king with a knife fetish in any case!
It's almost impossible for those of us in very different time zones to get in before they vanish though.

Getting the FTC involved seems to be a big NO, because everyone loses in the end.

 

[DJC72]

I recently cancelled my 3 orders with Survive, while it took a few emails and two phone calls, they were polite and I received my check. Please don't take this as Survive bashing, I actually learned a lesson from this experience. In the future, I will never pay in full for a product. While a small deposit would be acceptable, full payment with long production times is just not for me. I hope in the future Survive gets away from this current practice and wish them the best.

 

[bt93]

I understand where you're coming from. Let's hope Guy and Ellie can get everything running more smoothly next year!

Perhaps The Honorable Sir Donald Trump could help them operate their business more appropriately
Does this comment make me the troll now?!

It's not trolling when it's a legitimate idea.

 

[Vernal2014]

From the FTC website:


Your Rights When Shopping by Phone, Mail or Online

The Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule applies to most goods you order by mail, phone, fax, or online. It requires sellers to have a reasonable basis for claiming they can ship an order within a certain time and details what sellers should do if there is a delay.

Ship Dates
•By law, a seller should ship your order within the time stated in its ads or over the phone. If the seller doesn’t promise a time, you can expect it to ship your order within 30 days.
•The shipment “clock” begins when the seller receives a “properly completed order.” That includes your name, address and payment (check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account — whether the account is charged at that time or not).
•If the seller doesn’t promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the seller has an additional 20 days (50 days total) to establish the account and ship the merchandise.

Delays

If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free — for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is 30 days or less — it’s assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is more than 30 days — the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.

If the seller can’t meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.
•The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
•If you don’t respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.

Refunds

If you pay by cash, check or money order, or a non-seller credit card, the seller must give you a refund within seven working days after the order is canceled.

If you pay by credit card where the seller is the card issuer, the seller must credit your account within one billing cycle after the order is canceled.

It seems to me these laws are designed to protect against the "worst case" people are worried about. There would be no reason to worry about not getting a knife or a refund if the company was not allowed to get so far behind on shipping dates which could potentially lead to a huge influx of refund requests. It's pretty clear to me that Survive has no legal basis to deny a refund request and if they did that would be the end of this discussion.
The problem I have is it appears that Survive just keeps digging the hole deeper and deeper. In my opinion, taking on more pre-orders before other models have shipped and blowing shipping dates for 2nds makes it much more likely a disgruntled customer feels the need to notify the FTC. I hope that doesn't happen and Survive can continue to kick out knives for years to come.

 

[Fancier]

I take the position that every person that has placed an order needs to make a decision for themselves about how long they are willing to wait for a knife.
Until you have asked for a refund and been denied a refund you really don't have much of a complaint with the feds.
If you've spent any amount of time in a claims court you know that the first thing the judge asks is if you are willing to hand over the money.
If you pay the claim, the case is dismissed.

 

[TNVOL1969]

:thumbdn::thumbdn:

 

[ndmiller]

Almost a month long thread with 350+ posts that all have rehashed the same topics, ideas, counterpoints, potential resolutions, and personal experiences. I thought we were pausing until November, but it continues unabated.....Time to close this thread, until meaningful updates come either way.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Just caught the tale end of 1969s edit, IBTL

 

[mtangent]

Almost a month long thread with 350+ posts that all have rehashed the same topics, ideas, counterpoints, potential resolutions, and personal experiences. I thought we were pausing until November, but it continues unabated.....Time to close this thread, until meaningful updates come either way.

If it's closed, how will anybody post anything meaningful?

 

[Silver Needle]

TNVOL, are you ok?

I didn't see what you posted before the edit, but you have to get those jerkits outta here.

 

[timichango]

If it's closed, how will anybody post anything meaningful?

Honestly, if this thread gets locked, another will simply pop up. As long as there is a mass of dissatisfied and concerned customers, they'll find a venue to vent it. I'm actually surprised that at this stage of things, this discussion isn't happening in the feedback forum.

 

[Revolverrodger]

From the FTC website:


Your Rights When Shopping by Phone, Mail or Online

The Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule applies to most goods you order by mail, phone, fax, or online. It requires sellers to have a reasonable basis for claiming they can ship an order within a certain time and details what sellers should do if there is a delay.

Ship Dates
•By law, a seller should ship your order within the time stated in its ads or over the phone. If the seller doesn’t promise a time, you can expect it to ship your order within 30 days.
•The shipment “clock” begins when the seller receives a “properly completed order.” That includes your name, address and payment (check, money order or authorization to charge an existing credit account — whether the account is charged at that time or not).
•If the seller doesn’t promise a shipping time, and you are applying for credit to pay for your purchase, the seller has an additional 20 days (50 days total) to establish the account and ship the merchandise.

Delays

If the seller is unable to ship within the promised time, it must notify you, give a revised shipping date and give you the chance to cancel for a full refund or accept the new shipping date. The seller also must give you some way to exercise the cancellation option for free — for example, by supplying a prepaid reply card or staffing a toll-free telephone number.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is 30 days or less — it’s assumed that you accept the delay and are willing to wait for the merchandise.
•If you don’t respond — and the delay is more than 30 days — the order must be canceled by the 30th day of the delay period and a full refund issued promptly.

If the seller can’t meet the revised shipping date, it must notify you again by mail, email or telephone and give you a new shipping date or cancel your order and give you a refund.
•The order should be canceled and a refund issued promptly unless you indicate by the revised shipping date that you are willing to wait.
•If you don’t respond to the second notice, the seller should assume that you are not willing to wait issue a full refund promptly.

Refunds

If you pay by cash, check or money order, or a non-seller credit card, the seller must give you a refund within seven working days after the order is canceled.

If you pay by credit card where the seller is the card issuer, the seller must credit your account within one billing cycle after the order is canceled.

A former army man and LEO calling himself martha stewart.. who are you trying to kid troll ?

 

[ncrockclimb]

Honestly, if this thread gets locked, another will simply pop up. As long as there is a mass of dissatisfied and concerned customers, they'll find a venue to vent it. I'm actually surprised that at this stage of things, this discussion isn't happening in the feedback forum.

I started this thread in this sub-forum and not the GBU Feedback sub-forum because I thought the conversation would be more constructive and honest here. I also wanted to avoid the trolls that inhabit GBU Feedback. Obviously, a few annoying trolls have joined the conversation. However, for the most part I think this has been a relatively constructive conversation.