Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

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theJman said:
Other than sales? ;) I suspect if people knew how long it was going to take a lot fewer would have opted for the pre-sale/pre-work/pre-production/pre-we-have-anything-to-build-these-knives-with program that they ultimately ordered from. Under promise, over deliver is good. The opposite? Not so much.
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Not knowing how actual numbers would add up I would think it would be better to have a smaller crowd of people paying for a knife and knowing and accepting what kind of wait they're getting into rather than a larger group who's "tricked" into a purchase and then getting disgruntled later......... quite possibly asking for a refund once the advertised wait becomes too much.
 
Silver Needle said:
Not knowing how actual numbers would add up I would think it would be better to have a smaller crowd of people paying for a knife and knowing and accepting what kind of wait they're getting into rather than a larger group who's "tricked" into a purchase and then getting disgruntled later......... quite possibly asking for a refund once the advertised wait becomes too much.
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Well even people that "should" know better like myself who had already canceled some of my preorder knives, have their purchase influenced by the Point of Sale wording. I bought a monday sale in September RIGHT when SK was talking about making big changes in fall in response to the fallout of this thread. I even said, I would give SK the benefit of doubt on that September purchase. At my point of sale, it said shipping would be 10 to 15 days. Now I am several months later in November with THREE deer tags to fill and no knife. To add insult to injury, as I wait going on two months, I see they changed the Monday(now Wednesday) orders now to say "a few weeks" and then a Friday update only talking about how Guy has been busy working on a side scandi project.

The bottom line, and I am sorry if this all sounds like a broken record, but I would ask that SK Please Please Please get your point of sale and other verbiage to be in synch with your actual delivery times. It is not fair, it is not Legal, and it just isn't good business to willfully Influence Sales with misleading delivery times.

The "refund" option BTW does not make everything all right or justify influencing sales with misleading info. Refunds do not excuse, not absolve, not a "perk", not a Favor granted to customers, and does not grant immunity to retail law.
 
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mlmcasual said:
Well even people that "should" know better like myself who had already canceled some of my preorder knives, have their purchase influenced by the Point of Sale wording. I bought a monday sale in September RIGHT when SK was talking about making big changes in fall in response to the fallout of this thread. I even said, I would give SK the benefit of doubt on that September purchase. At my point of sale, it said shipping would be 10 to 15 days. Now I am several months later in November with THREE deer tags to fill and no knife. To add insult to injury, as I wait going on two months, I see they changed the Monday(now Wednesday) orders now to say "a few weeks" and then a Friday update only talking about how Guy has been busy working on a side scandi project.

The bottom line, and I am sorry if this all sounds like a broken record, but I would ask that SK Please Please Please get your point of sale and other verbiage to be in synch with your actual delivery times. It is not fair, it is not Legal, and it just isn't good business to willfully Influence Sales with misleading delivery times.

The "refund" option BTW does not make everything all right or justify influencing sales with misleading info. Refunds do not excuse, not absolve, not a "perk", not a Favor granted to customers, and does not grant immunity to retail law.
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I don't believe that they are willfully misleading people.
They severely underestimated the time it would take to build those knives
I'm sure that things will be better once they finish all the pre orders
 
Revolverrodger said:
I don't believe that they are willfully misleading people.
They severely underestimated the time it would take to build those knives
I'm sure that things will be better once they finish all the pre orders
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No I would definitely argue it is now unequivocally willful. You simply can't argue that saying X and then doing Y over and over and over and over again is not willful. My monday order knife is a month overdue and still counting and they had updated the Monday/Wednesday orders webpage to say "a few weeks" during the + month overdue time frame I have been waiting. At this point the "next time, when they finish X order it will get better" has no more merit other then a punch line.

On another note I am bummed to read a customers recent post regarding 7/7... as I had one on order this is discouraging news to me regarding leadtimes.
I again called. Survive when I read about the new heat treat and also inquired about a delivery time estimate on the 7/7 and was told probably Nov. or Dec. of 2016. I then went o. Blade forum and started to read about some concerns that people were having about all of the broken shipping dates and what is going on at survive. This left me with an uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach so I called survive again and spoke with Robyn.. I asked point point blank is survive going belly up.. She assured me things were fine. I asked her when the GSO 7/7 might start shipping I was told Jan. or Feb. of 2017
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Unfortunately, I had emailed in for a refund on a GS0-12 and 5.1. Haven't received the refund yet, but hopefully in the next few days. Would have loved to have the knives but I do not agree on how they are running there business. I am a business owner, and guess what, when I need money to help my business, I go to the bank and get a loan like everyone else. If they needed so much money up front to get going, they should have done exactly that and not dug themselves into a hole by asking for full payment up front with possible delivery times and not even coming close at all. I know where my business would be if I ran it like that...bankrupt and done.

This is just my opinion, yours may differ, but it is evident in this thread, alot of people are unhappy.
 
mlmcasual said:
No I would definitely argue it is now unequivocally willful. My monday order knife is a month overdue and still counting and they had updated the Monday/Wednesday orders webpage to say "a few weeks" during the + month overdue time frame I have been waiting. At this point the "next time, when they finish X order it will get better" has no more merit other then a punch line.

On another note I am bummed to read a customers recent post regarding 7/7... as I had one on order this is discouraging news to me regarding leadtimes.
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Are you saying that Guy from survive knives is willfully trying to screw over his customers?
I don't believe that one second.
The man is passionate about making the best knives at a fair price
 
Revolverrodger said:
Are you saying that Guy from survive knives is willfully trying to screw over his customers?
I don't believe that one second.
The man is passionate about making the best knives at a fair price
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Some people just aren't worth trying to understand.........
 
Revolverrodger said:
Are you saying that Guy from survive knives is willfully trying to screw over his customers?
I don't believe that one second.
The man is passionate about making the best knives at a fair price
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I don't know WHO is responsible for updating the website and communication at SK. How many times have you Seen GUY here to represent SK?
But I am saying that yes, SK! is willfuly misleading (not "screwing over") customers regarding point of sale lead times. That's just a fact Revolverrodger. At least a fact to me and many others. A fact that has been proven by a history, a fact that has been proven by my most recent example. I don't get the hesitation to just call things for what they are? I have had MUCH closer personal friends then "GUY", who is a complete stranger to you and me, that HAVE mislead me Haven't you?? So how is it so shocking "Guy" or SK could be misleading people? Hell, I once had a close friend that borrowed 100$ and had to confront month after month and listen to him lying to my face he would pay me back. and that was a CLOSE friend every bit as nice as Guy. So no, it's not inconceivable that SK could be misleading me on lead times. If you feel otherwise, you have a truly blessed life to have accumulated that level of trust. ;)

And lets also put things in context, misleading lead-times to benefit a sale is not "screwing over" or a federal crime.. well, actual it can be a federal crime but I digress. My point is, it's not like SK has denied refunds (which WOULD be screwing over). Maybe SK dosen't see it as such a big deal and just see misrepsenting lead-times on the same level as the wife being habitually late to a dinner party. You know, like always telling family we will be there at 6 and then she takes an hour to put on makeup and now we are show up at 7PM and my family is pissed at ME.. Ok, I am digressing again but you get the point.
 
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Yeah, there's no way that the past few months or more of making explicit timeline commitments and then missing them, every single time, is accidental. At what point are you forced to make a choice between concluding that it's either deliberate sleight of hand, or plain business incompetence?

Either way, it's not a flattering picture.
 
Revolverrodger said:
Are you saying that Guy from survive knives is willfully trying to screw over his customers?
I don't believe that one second.
The man is passionate about making the best knives at a fair price
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But not, apparently, running a business in which his company's word is worth something?
 
timichango said:
Yeah, there's no way that the past few months or more of making explicit timeline commitments and then missing them, every single time, is accidental. At what point are you forced to make a choice between concluding that it's either deliberate sleight of hand, or plain business incompetence?

Either way, it's not a flattering picture.
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Well, and good grief, it's not like only "bad", crooked, non christian evil people do it. In my own company I have had fellow engineers Good honest Christian men knowingly mislead customers on delivery times and I have been guilty of it myself! I know first hand the psychology of making and seeing promises made to customers you know that can't be kept. I have seen the boss making unrealistic commitments to make a sale. and it DISGUSTS me.. When I have done it, I absolutely feel the weight of it and vow to never do it again. When I see my boss do it, I get so stressed out I consider looking elsewhere for employment. This happens in business all the time! Wilfull ignorance is one the same as wilfully miselading. It is NOT the same as "severely overestimating" which 99% of the time is an utter hogwash statement people that intentionally mislead tell others and themselves to make it feel/look better. So hey, I am not without sin or trying to cast the stone here. But we do need to cut through the BS and call things for what they are, otherwise it's just insulting the customers.
 
This ^ - I don't think they're evil. But they do seem to be failing at learning from their mistakes. After a point, it just becomes less forgivable.
 
What amazes me is that those that are so discontent, rightfully so, aren't buying knives from the "For Sale: Fixed Blades" where for the price of a S!K you can purchase a very high quality true custom for less than $240 on average. I just received a very fine example of what is typically available there, cost me $155 shipped.

Having received my 4.7 CPM 154 I am very pleased, but I would never prepay for an S!K or any other knife at this point. Yes, the 4.7 is an improvement over the 3.5 and 4.1 I also own, but it is after all just a very good production type knife. That said, I will use it as such and will enjoy it for what it is. I rotate all of my knives with very few exceptions, depending on intended use or ease of carry.

Regardless as to whether S!K succeeds or fails, they have lost the respect of many, for yes, their willful recurrent delays, which is blatantly deceptive.
 
winger51 said:
What amazes me is that those that are so discontent, rightfully so, aren't buying knives from the "For Sale: Fixed Blades" where for the price of a S!K you can purchase a very high quality true custom for less than $240 on average. I just received a very fine example of what is typically available there, cost me $155 shipped.

Having received my 4.7 CPM 154 I am very pleased, but I would never prepay for an S!K or any other knife at this point. Yes, the 4.7 is an improvement over the 3.5 and 4.1 I also own, but it is after all just a very good production type knife. That said, I will use it as such and will enjoy it for what it is. I rotate all of my knives with very few exceptions, depending on intended use or ease of carry.

Regardless as to whether S!K succeeds or fails, they have lost the respect of many, for yes, their willful recurrent delays, which is blatantly deceptive.
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I have done exactly that. And bought a Carothers. And waited for my 4.7 CFV to show up after 2 misleading and explicit unmet commitments from S!K. Nice knife in the end, but I wouldn't voluntarily be their customer again.

At this point I'm not discontent at all. But I do feel compelled to call them on the ongoing nonsense, as a business. And I'd possibly be just as compelled to do so if I weren't a customer.

Because... it's nonsense that they can't resolve the issues leading to their reputation nosediving.

They're maiming their own rep, and it's really unfortunate - but it's happening, and no amount of well wishing and looking the other way will fix it.
 
A meaningful statistic to keep track of, if possible, would be the number of knives shipped each quarter. I don't know if that is possible, but if the numbers steadily increase, it would indicate some kind of improvement occurring.

It's sibling statistic would be the number of new orders taken each quarter. If that has decreased significantly, we could say SK is trying to catch up with old orders. I suspect this info can't be worked out with publicly available information.

These two statistics would answer every argument I have seen in this subforum.

SK pays nothing for this forum, they simply have to provide a moderator. I see no evidence of one.
 
mtangent: I had already asked basically that same question, phrased differently, April 29th, 2016 and this was the response, and it is actually Guy that responded:

Quote Originally Posted by winger51 View Post

ME: My initial question was only to get a feel for those who regularly, or not, visit this web site, as to who might have had the April fulfillment.
So my question would now be rephrased to Survive! Ellie, as to what the percentage of knives ordered as 4.7's, either as preorders or presales, have in fact been shipped?
That should be an easy estimate and wouldn't reflect on the total number of orders, only an estimate as to what we might expect in terms of completed order shipments.

GUY: "With the very last of the GSO-5.1s now either shipped or sitting in a box awaiting shipment, I'm working on the GSO-4.7s with almost 100% of my focus. They are being finished and put in the mail as fast as we can. I'm not really inclined to say what percentage of the orders have shipped, as it doesn't really matter. If anything the question seems a bit loaded. Whether I say 25%, 50%, or 90%, your knife isn't going to arrive any sooner or later than it was going to anyway. I'm not holding out or purposely delaying anything but I also won't rush either."
 
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winger51 said:
mtangent: I had already asked basically that same question, phrased differently, April 29th, 2016 and this was the response, and it is actually Guy that responded:

Quote Originally Posted by winger51 View Post

ME: My initial question was only to get a feel for those who regularly, or not, visit this web site, as to who might have had the April fulfillment.
So my question would now be rephrased to Survive! Ellie, as to what the percentage of knives ordered as 4.7's, either as preorders or presales, have in fact been shipped?
That should be an easy estimate and wouldn't reflect on the total number of orders, only an estimate as to what we might expect in terms of completed order shipments.

GUY: "With the very last of the GSO-5.1s now either shipped or sitting in a box awaiting shipment, I'm working on the GSO-4.7s with almost 100% of my focus. They are being finished and put in the mail as fast as we can. I'm not really inclined to say what percentage of the orders have shipped, as it doesn't really matter. If anything the question seems a bit loaded. Whether I say 25%, 50%, or 90%, your knife isn't going to arrive any sooner or later than it was going to anyway. I'm not holding out or purposely delaying anything but I also won't rush either."
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Not really the same. Percentages are very different to total numbers. The 2 raw figures I mentioned would allow you to work out if they are catching up, or getting further behind.
Have you received your 4.7?
 
I have followed survive! Since the company started
Guy has always worked hard to bring us the best knives he could
His knives have always sold out very fast
He looks like a honest fellow, more of a craftsman than a large scale manufacturer... and that explains the delays
You can't rush good quality

Same thing with Busse and their 'two weeks'
 
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