Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

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"Can't we all just get along?"
All exaggeration and hyperbole aside, I really do think that these knives qualify as luxury goods.
If someone can't tie the money up for an indefinite period, or even it just makes them mad not to have a solid delivery date, perhaps this is wrong sort of purchase for them to be making.
I don't intend offense by this observation, I'm simply trying to point out that this is an entirely voluntary transaction.
 
I agree with you, Fancier. I think if we all emulated the tone of the OP this thread would be a lot better. No insults necessary.

I think as far as real action we can take as customers, it does come down to either: buy or don't, wait it out or ask for refund. With that said I can understand frustrations from those who thought they signed up to wait a matter of months, but now looks like years for some models.

As far as the point of this thread and discussion goes, I think it's completely valid to discuss the concerns we have, even if we can't do any more directly than what I stated above.

The communication of realistic timelines is something that affects people who've paid and are waiting on orders AND potential, new customers. It doesn't do either group any good if communications on deliveries aren't ending up to be accurate.

The other valid concern is about the effects of ever growing lead times on the longevity of the company. The OP was not whining about not wanting to wait for a knife, but voicing concern on how these delays can hurt the company.
 
I agree that we should all try to get along
The way I see it Guy and Ellie are good people
The make amazing knives
They may not be the best buisness people around
In my case I won't cancel my orders because finding that auality at that price is pretty tough
 
I cancelled all of my orders with SK! I agree that, with these waits, they qualify as a luxury item. And I'm not into luxury knives.

On the plus side, Ellie was prompt and courteous in issuing a refund.
 
I cancelled all of my orders with SK! I agree that, with these waits, they qualify as a luxury item. And I'm not into luxury knives.

On the plus side, Ellie was prompt and courteous in issuing a refund.

Sorry to hear this. Do you have GSO's in your possession that you're still holding on to? I understand why you had to do what you did and I'm counting on SURVIVE! to keep moving forward to relieve the need for situations like this. Glad the refund process was quick at least.
 
Let me start by saying I want S!K to succeed. I was an early fan of S!K and purchased a few knives back in 2015. I was an active member of this forum and genuinely like the people here. In one of the first GBU threads that was critical of S!K, I was an aggressive advocate for Guy and S!K. I say all this because I want to make it clear that I am not “anti Survive!” and have supported S!K in the past.

The Starter Program was meant to be a way for S!K to generate capital to grow the business. It was promoted as a one-time effort and as an alternative to traditional debt or equity financing. Although they did not guarantee any delivery dates, they estimated that the 4.7s would be done before Christmas 2015. (they are still in production) Back in early 2015 when the Starter Program was in full swing, I am pretty sure that neither S!K nor the people buying knives expected things to go this slowly.

Traditionally, a business starts when someone makes an initial investment, creates a product, sells it for a profit, reinvests the money they made, creates more product, sells it for a profit, etc. Time is a VERY important factor in any business plan. If you build a business plan with the assumption that it will take week to build a product, and instead it takes you two months, you will probably eat through your initial investment and have to get more money.

Instead of getting a loan or selling shares, S!K got everyone to pay up front. Assuming that S!K did a detailed business plan, they made assumptions on how long it would take to make knives. Based on the estimated deliver dates provided by S!K back in early 2015, they are taking at least 3x longer than expected to produce knives.

Here is the problem. Time = money. S!K seems to be incapable of producing knives in a timely manner, and is burning through the Starter Program money at a faster than expected rate. They continue to add new models to the lineup, do additional pre-sales on existing models and sell of seconds / ugly betties to raise additional cash, all the while pushing the production of the Starter Program knives further into the future.

S!Ks standard response to concerns about delivery times always conveniently ignores the expansion of their product offering, additional pre-sales and inability to maintain a production schedule, and instead focuses on their commitment to quality. I agree that a commitment to quality is an admirable thing. However, if a company does not maintain a profitable business and meet their production schedule, they will not remain open and quality wont mean a damn thing.

Survive! fans keep saying Guy is a great knife maker. I am sorry, but I disagree. Guy designs nice knives, but he has proven that he is a bad business manager, has difficulty managing a supply chain and manufacturing operation, and is incapable of getting product produced in a timely manner. To put it another way, it looks like Guy designed a business model that won’t work, and the knives he has produced were subsidized buy the money paid for the knives that have not been made yet. And he is still responsible for the huge liability of the orders that have yet to be built.

I am writing this now because of the 7/7 email. I find it VERY troubling that S!K is not being forthcoming about lead times when they solicit new business. While I won’t go so far as to impugn their integrity, S!K seems to be using intentionally vague and easily misinterpreted language that hides the fact that the most recent round of 7/7 sales will probably not ship before the end of 2017 (and that is a generous estimate imho).

Let’s also seriously consider why S!K would offer these knives for sale, at a discount. They have already taken in $100k’s worth of sales, the majority of which still have not shipped (and probably wont for YEARS). They have demand for their product and can sell completed units as fast as they can make them. And yet, once again, they are trying to get cash NOW for a product that won’t be delivered for at least year. To most experienced business people, this looks like a company that is really strapped for cash. It also points to mismanagement and an unsustainable business model.

I know that this is a long post. But I think it is important to get this information out there. I want to see S!K prosper, but I don’t believe they can under the current business model. If S!K has any hope of turing this around, they need make major changes. If they continue down this path, i am convinced they will not be able to fulfill all their commitments.

Agreed. That's why I cancelled my orders. Best of luck to everyone on all sides.


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I can't wait to buy a few of these cancelled orders. That shortens my wait time quite a bit. Some of these Spyderco sprint runs are harder to get than Survive! knives. By the way, why are all these companies so stingy with Jade colored and glow in the dark scales. You would think they had 24karet liners.
 
Maybe if Survive! Would go ahead and put out the shirt for each production model we could all get one and have something to hold onto. I know I wear my GSO shirts with great pride and it always starts a conversation with someone.
 
Maybe if Survive! Would go ahead and put out the shirt for each production model we could all get one and have something to hold onto. I know I wear my GSO shirts with great pride and it always starts a conversation with someone.

Must be a short conversation once you tell them the lead times.

I do wear my Shirt as well..

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Aw man, you made me log in just to point out that your comment is kind of snarky.
Now I'm all sad inside... :(
 
I have to confess that I think the schematic shirts are pretty cool.


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I can't wait to buy a few of these cancelled orders. That shortens my wait time quite a bit. Some of these Spyderco sprint runs are harder to get than Survive! knives. By the way, why are all these companies so stingy with Jade colored and glow in the dark scales. You would think they had 24karet liners.

I'd venture to guess that many companies don't use the natural G10 (jade) because they tend to look dirtier quicker than other colors and enough people prefer their knives clean looking.

I think it's a bit analogous to people shying away from or being overly concerned about carbon steels on folders and I was a bit (albeit quite pleasantly) surprised when Spyderco released the latest two PM2s in M4 and the Military in 52100.
 
I agree with the sentiment that if you are not satisfied with Survive's business practices, cancel your order and look elsewhere. The market is flooded with so many well made knives, a person will be well equipped. This thread's title deals with misleading time estimates. When I received the email about the 7/7's, I quickly went to Survive's website to see what was up. When I saw that this knife should be done in a "few months", skepticism set in on my part and I did not place the order. Others not familiar with survive might think by mid January 2017 a 7/7 will be in hand. I hope that I am wrong and these blades are sent out in the few months as described. Survive makes a wonderful product and I wish them the very best.

Currently, I am waiting on a 4.7,6 and 12. I have owned another 5 Gso knives. I decided to cancel the 12, I have little need for it and could free up credit card space. I'm also a touch uneasy having around $800 invested at this point. About a week ago I called to cancel the order with out success, then I sent a email and Jordyn quickly responded and said Ellie would take care of it. Hopefully this week she will get the cancellation processed.
 
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I can't wait to buy a few of these cancelled orders. That shortens my wait time quite a bit. Some of these Spyderco sprint runs are harder to get than Survive! knives. By the way, why are all these companies so stingy with Jade colored and glow in the dark scales. You would think they had 24karet liners.

Bingo !
I would also love it if there was the option to buy the cancelled orders
 
Any unsold factory firsts will show up later in regular sales, but I'm sure we can agree that refunds and especially too many refunds won't be good for anyone.
 
If every unmade preorder got refunded right now I still think Survive! could finish building them and turn around and sell them easily at the new higher price. Heck, they have not even had enough to sell to dealers. They would get gobbled up so fast due to the high demand. Survive! Is doing just fine business wise. Better to keep demand high and supply low than to flood the market and knives get marked down for a loss or sit on shelves. You can never make everyone happy in business and those few always make the most noise. Anytime you order something like this you always double the lead time. It is funny that everyone suggests that are doing bad business. Survive is doing what ever is best for them to be happy. They may not care about money or they may have a ton of it, we don't know. I am sure someone will quote the same crap over and over again right underneath mine that has been reposted 10 times now. If they will refund then get your money and you are only out time, and just say you made a bad choice for yourself to take on the preorder. I think it is pretty arrogant to act like you know everything and they are doing it wrong. I Love my Survive! Knives and can't wait for my preorders, but I knew it would be a wait and was alright with that. Survive! will survive because there is a demand that far beyond the people on this forum. It is kinda funny too that all the knife specialists on here are the ones that complain the most and the hardest to make happy. This thread is a good idea as long as it stay creative and positive. There are always the bad apples that seem to be hoping Survive! goes down in flames and that only hurts this entire forum for the fans.
 
Better to keep demand high and supply low than to flood the market and knives get marked down for a loss or sit on shelves. You can never make everyone happy in business and those few always make the most noise. Anytime you order something like this you always double the lead time.

One thing is for absolute certain, it will balance itself out one way or another; laws of capitalism, free markets etc. But the concern is the "counterbalance" will be coming from the customer side. Safe to say everyone is sad to see that and would MUCH rather the counterbalance come from Survive! side. So if you want ONE underlying theme that Fans, Critics, and SK all can agree on, is we would love to see SK! take back the reigns.
 
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It is way balanced in Survive! Knives favor. Heck they had to raise prices to slow demand. They will be able to make knives as loooong as they want to or sell the name to a big MFG. They are beginning to hit their stride.
 
It is way balanced in Survive! Knives favor. Heck they had to raise prices to slow demand. They will be able to make knives as loooong as they want to or sell the name to a big MFG. They are beginning to hit their stride.

LOL.. wow, holy cow.. on what planet or alternate reality do you think it's balanced and they are just hitting their stride with a facebook full of angry customers, absolute out of control years+ lead-times with already received money, customer communication grievances, and refunds rolling in. Sorry, but that is just an absurd statement.

Consider this, most of us get paid weekly, monthly or worst case seasonally for small business for work we ALREADY DID. If you got paid TODAY up front for work you HAVEN'T EVEN DONE yet and not sure how many YEARS it will take you to complete that work, that is hardly a balanced budget plan, that would be your worst nightmare. Not knowing when you will be able to get committed work done for being paid up front can be difficult to manage in terms of months But in Terms of Years? And when you don't even have any clue how long it will take you to DO the committed work you have already taken money for?? Yea no, that's not a balanced plan. The only way that would be possible/sustainable is if If SK! was Rich with huge cash reserves doing this for a hobby. But if that was they case, you probably wouldn't be seeing a 100% up front now would you.

We all do Hope it WILL become balanced though, and on good terms. I DON't believe critics are rooting for failure, I am not that cynical, people are rooting for a turnaround and success. But you can't change what you don't acknowledge.
 
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