Condition, Condition, Condition

ksseabrd

ksseabrd

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This post will probably be moved or deleted, and I might even get a "reprimand". but I just bought a 2 year subscription, plus the year I just had. So I hope the Mods (Revdevil) will be leaniant with me, as I am only trying to help.

I think this post is IMPORTANT for everyone to read. And this seems the correct forum to post it in.



Guys and Gals.......

PLEASE carefully check the condition of your knives, before you post that they are LNIB or NIB.

Either one of those terms refer to a knife that can not be distinguished from a knife bought straight from the factory / authorized dealer.

So Turn on the LIGHTS and closely inspect the knife you are selling! If there is a mark on the Titanium side from the pocket clip being moved, then that IS NOT a LNIB knife, as now there are 2 marks on the knife! If the last 1/2" of blade tip is so rounded off the you can't even cut a piece of paper with it, then that is NOT a LNIB or NIB knife!

I feel there are situations where people are wanting to "cash in" on the fact that their knife is worth 2-3-4 times what they paid back in the day. problem is....... those prices and values are only for knives that are TRULY NIB. Meaning you CAN NOT tell them from a factory new knife.

Obviously I am posting this because it is something that is striking close to me. that is true. but it is a trend I have been noticing lately with the rise of knives that are rapidly ascending in value, from what they were worth a short time ago.

I see people wanting to cash in on their knife, even though it has been used, and has some marks on it. Wether it be blade edge, titanium snail trails, marks from moving pocket clips, or scratches on carbon fiber. They either don't look (ostrich with head in sand), or they say "well.... that's not THAT bad, maybe they won't notice"

I / WE WILL NOTICE...... If I am buying a knife at 2-4 times the original cost, after you have posted it is NIB or LINIB, I will be going over it, in a well lit area, very carefully. I will probably even use my reading glasses!!! Then we will have the problem of the knife not being in the condition that you described. Which means either partial refunds, or, full refunds and retuning the knives. Both of those options suck for everybody.

So how about you actually INSPECT the knife you want to sell, and if there are snail trails on the titanium, blade centering that is off, or a blade that will need to be sharpened, or Carbon fiber that will need polishing. you just mention these issues!

You save everyone a lot of trouble, plus you get to be known as a knife guy who is a straight shooter. (and YES, there are plenty of those out there)

I don't want to have to leave feedback about someone that says: "Nice guy, but needs to work on his descriptions of his knives. Be careful! Ask for pictures, and ask questions. What you are being told, may NOT be accurate."

Nobody wants to open the box of a "grail knife" and go..... "Crap, what is that?"
 
I feel your pain brother but this is definitely not the forum. I can just about guarantee it will be moved. . .
 
I can live with that. but the people in this forum are the ones that NEED to read it.

Reality is........ it should probably be a sticky.

lol
 
This is very important stuff if you collect knives for possible resale down the road .. This should also be true for dealers who sell knives they get at shows. I had a instance when I purchased a knife from a highly regarded knifemaker that had a very terrible grind on the sharpened bevel . You should have been there at the time I opened it. It stuck out like a sore thumb . I was made whole in the end but not until having the hassle of shipping back and a little back and forth with dealer.

You right though .. If your charging a premium price on a knife just look at it from the consumers view not from the greedy little pig view. And maybe you will complete sales with dignity .
 
+1 and very well written.

Full disclosure regardless of the price is critical.

LNIB and BNIB mean just that, any deviations, regardless how minor (within reason) need to be stated....
 
Sometimes even LNIB or NIB can be a little misleading. I am sure that most have received at least one knife direct from a dealer, maker, or manufacturer that was less than perfect (undesired marks, centering off, dull as a butter knife, etc.). Yet, it was technically NIB. I think that is why detailed/clear pics of the knife being sold are so critical. One thing I like (but doubt would ever become widespread in its use) is something I saw posted here some time ago (not sure where, but believe it was in the feedback forum). It was a grading system by the National Knife Collectors' Association. I thought it was great, so I kept a copy. Here is what was posted (verbatim) reference condition grading:

Condition Description

Pristine mint: Knives in this category must be flawless, and must have additional characteristics that set them apart from mint. They could have an unusually good fit for example.

Mint: This would be a knife that has never been carried, never sharpened, never used, and does not have rust problems of any kind. Some collectors will classify a very old knife that has a few rust marks as mint (especially those made prior to WWII). The newer the knife gets from there, the less rust specs it must have to maintain its mint status. In addition, most Case knife collectors are a bit stricter on grading knives. An old Case knife with any rust mark would not be considered mint. Note: A knife that had rust, and was cleaned to look mint would be considered near mint or worse depending on how harshly it was cleaned.

Near Mint: There must be nothing wrong with a near mint knife. It should "walk and talk" and must have most of the original polish visible on the blades. Very light sharpening would be acceptable, but the blades must be full. It can have some light rust spots, but no deep rust pits. Some light carry scratches are permitted on the outside as well.

Excellent: Knives in this condition would include solid, lightly used knives. There may be a bit of blade wear (no more than 10%). Some tarnish and light pitting would be acceptable. Blades should snap well, and the tang mark should be clear.

Very Good: Knives in this category are generally fairly well used knives. There may be blade wear of up to 25%. The blades should still be sound, but one or more may be slow. The stamping should be readable, but may be faint. The handles may have cracks and wear, but shouldn't have major chipping. The knife might also have some rust pitting and tarnish.

Good: Knives in good condition must still be useable as a working knife. Blade wear may be between 25-50%. There might be chips in the handle or blade. Blades may be slow with deep pits and rust. You should still be able to make out the maker of the knife by shield or tang stamp.

Poor: A poor knife is generally only good for parts. The blades might be less than 50%, extra lazy or even broken. Tang marks are generally barely legible, and the handles may be chipped.

Junk: Anything less than poor. These knives would be pretty much worthless. May have a liner, back spring or bolster that would be salvageable for parts, but probably not even that.
 
Good topic, just incorrectly placed. I think it's good to discuss things like this, as it helps lessen potential problems in what otherwise amounts to simple transactions.
 
Rule of thumb, be more critical of the knife as the seller than the buyer will be.

I beam with pride when I get feedback that says the knife was in better condition than as described. That's what I shoot for.

Where I have run into issues the most when buying is when you deal with a flipper. Not in the sense of people whom flip them for profit bit the people who buy every knife they see and then sell it off a week later. They usually don't even take the time to inspect the knife and will just use the previous sellers description for the knife.

Too many times I have contacted sellers saying 'you described this as lnib and here's a list of issues who its not' only to get a reply that says, 'well the person I bought it from said it was...'
 
First, thanks for the kind words.

Mods, don't worry, I'm not going to become a "problem child" at least not here. :-)
But I think it would be a good idea for you guys to consider posting something about this subject as a sticky on the buy and sell forms. Seems to me that maintaining the legitimacy of the buy and sell forms is of paramount importance to the people that run this bulletin board. And overtime that legitimacy will suffer if people continue to get more and more liberal with the descriptions of their knives.

DRH. Nice post, I like that grading list. That could be a sticky.


Scurvy. This is exactly what I see as a primary problem. In my case I have had two such situations recently. People have to understand that that is not a legitimate excuse. Once you are the owner of a knife, YOU are responsible for its condition discription. Not the guy you bought it from.
 
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And you must understand that Bladeforums provides the venue, and we do what we can to help, but ultimately it is the responsibility of the seller and buyer to resolve their own issues as adults. We are not going to hold everyones hand to insure that descriptions are correct and that everyone gets a good deal.

If a seller turns out to not be describing their items properly, your best course of action is to bring it to their attention and ask for a full or partial refund.
If they refuse to work something out, contact paypal (if paid by that method) and file an "item not as described" claim. Also notify the moderators of this behavior by reporting the original sales post before the pictures or description can be edited. If a member continues to routinely sell items not as described, he will be dealt with up to and including removal of his account privileges as a malicious seller.

The Exchange Rules said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98

4.When describing your items, be honest and provide an accurate & detailed description of the item. Don't forget to mention defects, blemishes, new, used, or other problems. When in doubt, be pessimistic with your descriptions. If you have a problem being honest, upfront, and are unable to honor your word then you do not belong here.
Click to expand...
 
This is an important topic. I guess it could be a sticky, but the problem is, there are already quite a few, and they don't always get read...
 
I agree with the OP. Unfortunately not everyone is as careful as we would like, not just in knives, but in other areas of their lives.

When I sell knives, the pictures I take make them look like garbage. This is because they are so macroed out that every spec of dust looks like a dent. I try to describe every problem I can find and I do go over it completely in bright light. One should never simply use the previous owners description, that is down right negligent. I have had minor issues with a few of the knives I have bought here. Nothing major enough for me to request my money back, leave negative feedback, or post about it here. Then again, I don't purchase super high end stuff.

If only folks would follow the golden rule. Or perhaps they don't care if they are treated well....
 
338375 said:
This is an important topic. I guess it could be a sticky, but the problem is, there are already quite a few, and they don't always get read...
Click to expand...

This is true. The folks who need to read them hardly ever do. That is why they are the folks that need to read them.
 
338375 said:
This is an important topic. I guess it could be a sticky, but the problem is, there are already quite a few, and they don't always get read...
Click to expand...

Making a "Sticky'd Thread" is the best place to hide any information and ensure it will not be read. :D
 
Just a thought about the grading system mentioned above by Dennis..

Could something not be built into a sale thread?

So, for example, when you start a sale thread, you have to pick from one of the descriptions above before that thread can be posted.
This will make the seller think, and give the buyer a much better idea of what is up for sale, as this is a universal method for condition.

So the title of the thread would be:

(Insert condition from choices) Spyderco PM2 for sale.

It's not a perfect system, but it is a clear one, and if you can follow the description of each category, there should be a limit in surprises....
 
So just take this (below) and when you go to sell, you will have to check one condition description...

Include all the text, so it can be read clearly by the seller, and when the posting comes up, it will only take the text from the sellers choice of condition and provide that in the listing....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pristine mint: Knives in this category must be flawless, and must have additional characteristics that set them apart from mint. They could have an unusually good fit for example.

Mint: This would be a knife that has never been carried, never sharpened, never used, and does not have rust problems of any kind. Some collectors will classify a very old knife that has a few rust marks as mint (especially those made prior to WWII). The newer the knife gets from there, the less rust specs it must have to maintain its mint status. In addition, most Case knife collectors are a bit stricter on grading knives. An old Case knife with any rust mark would not be considered mint. Note: A knife that had rust, and was cleaned to look mint would be considered near mint or worse depending on how harshly it was cleaned.

Near Mint: There must be nothing wrong with a near mint knife. It should "walk and talk" and must have most of the original polish visible on the blades. Very light sharpening would be acceptable, but the blades must be full. It can have some light rust spots, but no deep rust pits. Some light carry scratches are permitted on the outside as well.

Excellent: Knives in this condition would include solid, lightly used knives. There may be a bit of blade wear (no more than 10%). Some tarnish and light pitting would be acceptable. Blades should snap well, and the tang mark should be clear.

Very Good: Knives in this category are generally fairly well used knives. There may be blade wear of up to 25%. The blades should still be sound, but one or more may be slow. The stamping should be readable, but may be faint. The handles may have cracks and wear, but shouldn't have major chipping. The knife might also have some rust pitting and tarnish.

Good: Knives in good condition must still be useable as a working knife. Blade wear may be between 25-50%. There might be chips in the handle or blade. Blades may be slow with deep pits and rust. You should still be able to make out the maker of the knife by shield or tang stamp.

Poor: A poor knife is generally only good for parts. The blades might be less than 50%, extra lazy or even broken. Tang marks are generally barely legible, and the handles may be chipped.

Junk: Anything less than poor. These knives would be pretty much worthless. May have a liner, back spring or bolster that would be salvageable for parts, but probably not even that.
 
JR88FAN said:
Just a thought about the grading system mentioned above by Dennis..

Could something not be built into a sale thread?

So, for example, when you start a sale thread, you have to pick from one of the descriptions above before that thread can be posted.
This will make the seller think, and give the buyer a much better idea of what is up for sale, as this is a universal method for condition.

So the title of the thread would be:

(Insert condition from choices) Spyderco PM2 for sale.

It's not a perfect system, but it is a clear one, and if you can follow the description of each category, there should be a limit in surprises....
Click to expand...

Another forum I am a part of does this but that is for selling telescope equipment not knives. I think it would get BFC way too involved. Possibly open them up to liability with paypal claims and what not. They simply host a place for us to do our business. I think that is enough. If you use paypal correctly, you are plenty covered.
 
The grading system I found and posted above is just for reference. Even it (like stating NIB or LNIB) is open to interpretation. No way to avoid that. When you think condition, condition, condition .... there are few really good substitutes for pictures, pictures, pictures! And, sad to say, even detailed pics can hide things which might be flaws to one and totally insignificant to others. I go over every knife I sell with a magnifying glass to look for things which need to be disclosed. Sometimes those things are visible in pics .... other times, they are impossible (well, for me) to capture in a photo. I once sold a beautiful Elishewitz Gordian Knot. I would have graded the knife as 'mint' .... but there was a very superficial scratch on one side of the blade that was only visible in certain lighting and impossible to photograph. I made sure to include this in the listing. When the buyer received the knife, he thought I was mistaken about the scratch because he could not find it. I had to tell him how to hold the knife and where to look! So, even while pics are the best to show condition, honest thorough info about the knife is needed. I have a beautiful Spyderco Centofante Memory. Totally LNIB/NIB. However, if I were ever to sell it (I won't), I would have to say that it has a horrible uneven grind ... something I will correct if I ever decide to carry or gift it.
 
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