Condition, Condition, Condition

[BP Green]

Rule of thumb, be more critical of the knife as the seller than the buyer will be.

I beam with pride when I get feedback that says the knife was in better condition than as described. That's what I shoot for.

Where I have run into issues the most when buying is when you deal with a flipper. Not in the sense of people whom flip them for profit bit the people who buy every knife they see and then sell it off a week later. They usually don't even take the time to inspect the knife and will just use the previous sellers description for the knife.

Too many times I have contacted sellers saying 'you described this as lnib and here's a list of issues who its not' only to get a reply that says, 'well the person I bought it from said it was...'

Good point. Actual example:

Just a day or two ago, I received a trade offer from someone in response to a thread I started with a very specific want. The person described his knife as "mint".

When I did a little digging around I came to find out that not only was it not even the knife I had specifically asked for, the knife wasn't even in his possesion because he had just bought it himself that day or the day before. The picture he used was of the prior sales thread, He had never even handled or laid eyes on the knife himself yet he described it as mint. A description the guy he bought it from didn't even use in his sales thread from what I coud see.

Now had the guy been up front and simply told me he had just bought the knife and had never laid eyes on it himself but that he would inspect it upon arrival then get back to me, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But he didn't do that. This particular person actually has a knife up for sale that I was very interested in. I'm no longer interested because I no longer trust his descriptions.

I don't mind guys flipping knives at all. I do it all the time myself. It's part of what makes this hobby fun. Just don't try to pass something off as mint if you've never even seen it yourself. Describe your items honestly and you may still run into problems. I've had that happen too. Some folks are so critical they'll never be satisfied but thats another story for another thread.

 

[ksseabrd]

I personaly think that issues with a knife, that came from the factory, are a seperate situation from issues with a knife that are a result of ownership.

In other words, a knife could be NIB, even with bad blade centering. As that is not something that was done to the knife by an owner. However, that would be something that should be disclosed.

 

[craytab]

I personaly think that issues with a knife, that came from the factory, are a seperate situation from issues with a knife that are a result of ownership.

In other words, a knife could be NIB, even with bad blade centering. As that is not something that was done to the knife by an owner. However, that would be something that should be disclosed.

Anything wrong with the knife, whether coming from the factory, or from previous use must be disclosed. It would be dishonest to do otherwise. LNIB or NIB doesn't give the full condition....

 

[KELAMA]

Good point. Actual example:

Just a day or two ago, I received a trade offer from someone in response to a thread I started with a very specific want. The person described his knife as "mint".

When I did a little digging around I came to find out that not only was it not even the knife I had specifically asked for, the knife wasn't even in his possesion because he had just bought it himself that day or the day before. The picture he used was of the prior sales thread, He had never even handled or laid eyes on the knife himself yet he described it as mint. A description the guy he bought it from didn't even use in his sales thread from what I coud see.

Now had the guy been up front and simply told me he had just bought the knife and had never laid eyes on it himself but that he would inspect it upon arrival then get back to me, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But he didn't do that. This particular person actually has a knife up for sale that I was very interested in. I'm no longer interested because I no longer trust his descriptions.

I don't mind guys flipping knives at all. I do it all the time myself. It's part of what makes this hobby fun. Just don't try to pass something off as mint if you've never even seen it yourself. Describe your items honestly and you may still run into problems. I've had that happen too. Some folks are so critical they'll never be satisfied but thats another story for another thread.

I'm happy to learn, that you did your due diligence & avoided making a big mistake.

FYI: This same member also threw a big tantrum on his very FIRST attempted BF transaction (turned out that he took a knife in a sales thread, but wanted an extension to pay for it). He then left NEGATIVE FEEDBACK for a transaction that never happened.

It's disappointing, that there are member's on this forum who feel that it's ok to behave this way.

Thank you for starting this thread, ksseabrd. I have purchased several knives here that were listed as NIB/LNIB, but weren't. I just bit the bullet & took the losses. There were definitely a couple of occasions where I should have left negative feedback, or returned the knife, but I have much more important issues to deal with in life, than add more problems. On a positive note: 99+% of my transaction here on BF, have been exceptional! :thumbup:

 

[KELAMA]

Anything wrong with the knife, whether coming from the factory, or from previous use must be disclosed. It would be dishonest to do otherwise. LNIB or NIB doesn't give the full condition....

+1 Exactly!

I am always a little suspicious, when I read a thread that lacks important descriptions such as:
1. Lockup
2. Blade Centeredness

A knife can be NIB/Mint, but if it isn't perfect in these 2 regards, I would normally tend to pass on it.

 

[FTR-14c]

I'm a fixed blade kind of guy and sold dozens of knives without a problem. Then I decided to let go of a few folders and learned very quickly that folder people are very aware of every tiny detail. They have every right to be as its their hard earned money. My problem was I just didn't know what to look for. There are so many little things that can be wrong with a folder, even if its new in the box.

I had one or two buyers contact me after they received their knives about some small imperfection that I never would have noticed. That really opened my eyes. Now I am very careful when I describe the condition of a knife.

 

[JR88FAN]

Then I guess it just comes down to honest people trying to do the right thing, and thinking about what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, and they where the buyer....

Some people are conscious of others and care about how they represent a product as it reflects on them. Others just want to make as much money as they can and have no regard for honesty or that their product and description of it, is a representation of themselves.....

This is just human nature, and we ain't going to change it.

But I really hope this thread is read by a lot of people, and everyone puts some effort into being honest and especially on a forum for 'knife nuts' does the right thing when they offer a knife for sale...

 

[cakes072185]

I totally agree about condition. One thing that I always try and find out if it's been heavily played with. I bought a knife that was 'NIB', and when I got it it was spotless, never carried or used or sharpened, but was broken in. Detent ball track was worn in and everything. Personally I'd rather have a knife that was barely carried but not broken in, than a knife that was spotless but completely broken in. That's just me though.

 

[RevDevil]

I totally agree about condition. One thing that I always try and find out if it's been heavily played with. I bought a knife that was NIB, and when I got it it was spotless, never carried or used or sharpened, but was broken in. Detent ball track was worn in and everything. Personally I'd rather have a knife that was barely carried but not broken in, than a knife that was spotless but completely broken in. That's just me though.

That is actually an oxymoron. If a knife is "broken in" (as you describe) its hardly new anymore. The newness of an item is only partly (like maybe 2%) definable by the length of time in someone's possession. It speaks more to the condition of the item. The closer the item is to the way it left the factory, the "newer" it is. I have knives that have never been out of their boxes even once since I bought them years ago. They are as "new: as they were when they left the store I bought them.

I don't understand and stay very far from listing that describe a knife as new, just sharpened once. No, it's not new since you sharpened it once. It's not new since you sanded the scales down, it's not new since you disassembled it, sanded the washers and reoiled it. Some folks never learn and a sucker is born every minute. I also recommend people do NOT buy anything without pictures, lots and lots of pictures. Unless they know and trust the person.

My scale is as follows:

NIB: Means that the knife is exactly as it was from the store, no use, no carry, little to no handling.
LNIB: Means the knife has possibly been carried, *lightly* used, stored outside the box.
USED: Means, just that. The knife was carried and used repeated. This is a gray area so honestly is the best policy.
-Stay away from words like "Mint" to describe a slightly used knife, it sure isn't mint if you've carried it. Common sense is your friend, do not resist it.

 

[craytab]

+1 Exactly!

I am always a little suspicious, when I read a thread that lacks important descriptions such as:
1. Lockup
2. Blade Centeredness

A knife can be NIB/Mint, but if it isn't perfect in these 2 regards, I would normally tend to pass on it.

Don't forget smoothness or action. I like to see these 3 things mentioned in an ad. I mention them in mine. In fact, here on the exchange, good sellers will mention these things which can eliminate the chances of something being off compared to when buying new! This is one way the exchange is a win!

 

[ksseabrd]

Anything wrong with the knife, whether coming from the factory, or from previous use must be disclosed. It would be dishonest to do otherwise. LNIB or NIB doesn't give the full condition....

I did mention that if there is an "issue" that you know about, then your are honor bound to disclose it.

However, there can be issues with a knife that you are unaware of, and the knife would still be NIB. how so? I'll explain.

I was into sports card collecting when I was younger. Perfect example. With sports cards, if a package of cards is unopened from the factory, every card in that package is considered to be NIB / mint condition, even though it may not be.

In 1989 Upper deck released it's first box of baseball cards, and the number one card in that box was Ken Griffey jr's rookie card. Now that card being #1 in that box, meant that it sat at the end of the box, against a cardboard spacer. That cardboard spacer in some cases would slightly discolor that #1 card. BUT if the have one of those sets (I do) and the box has never been opened (mine hasn't), then that card and all the others inside the box are considered Mint condition. If you opened your box....... now all of the cards are subject to being individually graded for condition.

"Ken...... how does that pertain to knives?"

Well, it is not common in knives, but some manufactures will but their knives in sealed boxes. Such as one of the current HOT knives on the market right now,The ZT 0454. That knife is coming from the factory in a factory sealed box, the seal even says.......

"STOP, if seal is broken, check contents before signing."

So if your purchase one of those knives and leave it factory sealed, IMO that is a a NIB perfect condition knife. If you decide to open and look at it. (how can you resist? Now the knife is subject to inspection and reveling it's faults, to a potential buyer.

 

[338375]

Making a "Sticky'd Thread" is the best place to hide any information and ensure it will not be read.

LOL...

Good point. Actual example:

Just a day or two ago, I received a trade offer from someone in response to a thread I started with a very specific want. The person described his knife as "mint".

When I did a little digging around I came to find out that not only was it not even the knife I had specifically asked for, the knife wasn't even in his possesion because he had just bought it himself that day or the day before. The picture he used was of the prior sales thread, He had never even handled or laid eyes on the knife himself yet he described it as mint. A description the guy he bought it from didn't even use in his sales thread from what I coud see.

Now had the guy been up front and simply told me he had just bought the knife and had never laid eyes on it himself but that he would inspect it upon arrival then get back to me, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But he didn't do that. This particular person actually has a knife up for sale that I was very interested in. I'm no longer interested because I no longer trust his descriptions.

I don't mind guys flipping knives at all. I do it all the time myself. It's part of what makes this hobby fun. Just don't try to pass something off as mint if you've never even seen it yourself. Describe your items honestly and you may still run into problems. I've had that happen too. Some folks are so critical they'll never be satisfied but thats another story for another thread.

Members are not supposed to list knives for sale or trade, unless they have physical possession of the knife.
That particular person sounds like a huge headache in the making...

 

[Marko3]

I think there have been many great points regarding full disclosure . Some people don't know what to look for and make honest omissions some folks are just trying to get rid of a problem knife and don't care if they who they piss off.

As the poster mentioned above ,, Guys who collect folders are usually very particular and look at every detail . My tastes have changed and buy and trade in a lot of expensive pieces and not many production knives. Some hand made pieces are going to have defects due to the handmade nature.

Most guys that I have dealt with have been good at there description and the ones who have not just go in the black book . We just need to ask all out questions before the sale if they have not been addressed in the add . It sucks sending stuff back and it sucks to be put in that position. As a knife maker I have had a couple knives sent back to me and I would look at the issue and be stunned that I even missed it.. And I take my reputation seriously so people do make mistakes .

At the end off the day we can just list our items objectively and hope others do the same.

 

[craytab]

So if your purchase one of those knives and leave it factory sealed, IMO that is a a NIB perfect condition knife. If you decide to open and look at it. (how can you resist? Now the knife is subject to inspection and reveling it's faults, to a potential buyer.

"Unopened and with original seal NIB" should not be used with "perfect condition knife". These are two different things. How do you know it is in perfect condition if you haven't looked at it? You can get plenty of knives direct from the factory or dealer that have not been opened at all but are not perfect. One needs to be very careful how one describes the condition of a knife. If a seller says it is perfect, than I would expect perfection. That is why I would not say anything is perfect. There is no such thing. Remember, describe the condition accurately! NIB with seal from factory is just that, not perfect though, that is an unknown assumption.

 

[ksseabrd]

"Unopened and with original seal NIB" should not be used with "perfect condition knife". These are two different things. How do you know it is in perfect condition if you haven't looked at it? You can get plenty of knives direct from the factory or dealer that have not been opened at all but are not perfect. One needs to be very careful how one describes the condition of a knife. If a seller says it is perfect, than I would expect perfection. That is why I would not say anything is perfect. There is no such thing. Remember, describe the condition accurately! NIB with seal from factory is just that, not perfect though, that is an unknown assumption.

Afaik, very few knives are sold in a factory SEALED box. The 0454 is one that is.

So I guess I am posing a good question. Is a knife that a person is selling, that is in a factory sealed unopened box, a knife that should be considered NIB / mint condition?

 

[craytab]

Afaik, very few knives are sold in a factory SEALED box. The 0454 is one that is.

So I guess I am posing a good question. Is a knife that a person is selling, that is in a factory sealed unopened box, a knife that should be considered NIB / mint condition?

I would say yes, but it can NOT be assumed perfect. Just like buying from a manufacturer or dealer, if buying a mint sealed BNIB knife on the exchange, if that knife is not to the expectations of the buyer (IE centering off), the seller must be ready for a return. That is why a seller should check over his or her item with a fine tooth comb like you proposed in the OP. Yes this will break the seal if there is one but it is the only way to unsure one knows exactly what one is selling. If the seller doe not even look at the knife or doesn't want to break the seal that is their risk. If there are flaws on a BNIB knife, they must be listed. Ignorance of such flaws is no excuse, just like with a dealer.

 

[RevDevil]

Again, the term "NIB" should only describe the condition of the knife relative to the difference from when it came from the store into the possession of a customer. It has nothing what so ever to do with the way the knife left the factory itself. There s no such thing as a perfect knife, it's all subjective and varies from one person to the next. What one might obsess over and lose sleep about might not be anything to another person. It's a matter of perspective. Although, sometimes you buy something and it's a piece of s.... no matter how you define the condition as being, it's still a big old honkin piece of s....

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

"Unopened and with original seal NIB" should not be used with "perfect condition knife". These are two different things. How do you know it is in perfect condition if you haven't looked at it? You can get plenty of knives direct from the factory or dealer that have not been opened at all but are not perfect. One needs to be very careful how one describes the condition of a knife. If a seller says it is perfect, than I would expect perfection. That is why I would not say anything is perfect. There is no such thing. Remember, describe the condition accurately! NIB with seal from factory is just that, not perfect though, that is an unknown assumption.

To me that is the same thing as saying I'm selling an unused, but sharpest knife I own. If it had never cut anything (unused), how can you know it's your sharpest knife? That always gets to me.

When reading these threads I am very glad that knives are nice tools to collect, rather than investments to me. I don't care if a knife has a scratched blade because I tend to buy the knife to use anyways, and preferably buy used. It's a policy of mine to not pay for name alone, or a premium for condition. I'll buy a new knife for a decent price and sharpen or drop it in pocket, knowing I've lowered the value, but that is how I look at our hobby. Is the knife in good, useable condition. Now I'm not saying that full disclosure shouldn't be warranted regardless of condition, but I loose way less sleep over a blade 1/64" off centered this way, and have bought great knives at a discount because of inconsequential blemishes, (if it opens, closes, cuts and has no GSP's why take out a microscope?) so I guess I should thank the pristine condition collectors, you have made trading knives harder IMO (every bodies pristine NIB wonder knives are like gold, and usually isn't worth my time trying to barter with most people, because I don't care if your Delica is NIB- it's still just a damn Delica- for example), but have dropped the prices for user knives, because who would want a knife that has cut stuff!! (Tongue in cheek).

I do appreciate the discussions regarding condition because it allows me to gauge how exacting the market is for different aspects. Unless it's a multi-blade slipjoint I rarely check blade centering, as long as it opens and closes without too much rub I'm okay. But I learned that it is huge to many collectors. I was amazed at the level of concern with secondary market influences and other such factors when I first joined here. I bought a number of early knives from a maker, and the vendor asked me not to post some of them because they weren't traditional enough and would detract customers from the maker- despite the fact he was producing top level knives at the time. To me, I see the troubles that NIB collecting brings, and it just isn't worth the stress to me. I'm happy scratching and cutting with my knives! But not telling anybody else how to enjoy the passion, I'm just glad I can look from the other side of this issue most times!

 

[craytab]

Again, the term "NIB" should only describe the condition of the knife relative to the difference from when it came from the store into the possession of a customer. It has nothing what so ever to do with the way the knife left the factory itself. There s no such thing as a perfect knife, it's all subjective and varies from one person to the next. What one might obsess over and lose sleep about might not be anything to another person. It's a matter of perspective. Although, sometimes you buy something and it's a piece of s.... no matter how you define the condition as being, it's still a big old honkin piece of s....

Right, this is why I like to see is NIB and then a description of the most common issues (lockup, centering, smoothness/action) and then some good up close pictures. I sell my knives this way as well. NIB doesn't really describe anything.

 

[pbcg]

Again, the term "NIB" should only describe the condition of the knife relative to the difference from when it came from the store into the possession of a customer. It has nothing what so ever to do with the way the knife left the factory itself. There s no such thing as a perfect knife, it's all subjective and varies from one person to the next./QUOTE]

Exactly!

Just because something is factory direct doesn't mean it doesn't have a flaw(s). Especially a production knife.

Bottom line, it's the responsibility of the seller to disclose any noticeable or known flaws / defects.There's so much room for interpretation of what "Mint" "NIB" "LNIB" means. Make it simple, You can say NIB or LNIB but then list any noticeable flaws or defects or lack there of. It's the honest and right thing to do. Very simple really.