Condition, Condition, Condition

ksseabrd said:
I did mention that if there is an "issue" that you know about, then your are honor bound to disclose it.

However, there can be issues with a knife that you are unaware of, and the knife would still be NIB. how so? I'll explain.

I was into sports card collecting when I was younger. Perfect example. With sports cards, if a package of cards is unopened from the factory, every card in that package is considered to be NIB / mint condition, even though it may not be.

In 1989 Upper deck released it's first box of baseball cards, and the number one card in that box was Ken Griffey jr's rookie card. Now that card being #1 in that box, meant that it sat at the end of the box, against a cardboard spacer. That cardboard spacer in some cases would slightly discolor that #1 card. BUT if the have one of those sets (I do) and the box has never been opened (mine hasn't), then that card and all the others inside the box are considered Mint condition. If you opened your box....... now all of the cards are subject to being individually graded for condition.

"Ken...... how does that pertain to knives?"

Well, it is not common in knives, but some manufactures will but their knives in sealed boxes. Such as one of the current HOT knives on the market right now,The ZT 0454. That knife is coming from the factory in a factory sealed box, the seal even says.......

"STOP, if seal is broken, check contents before signing."

So if your purchase one of those knives and leave it factory sealed, IMO that is a a NIB perfect condition knife. If you decide to open and look at it. (how can you resist? :-) Now the knife is subject to inspection and reveling it's faults, to a potential buyer.
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I understand the broken seal theory pertaining to something that is potentially collectible, but for the price people are asking for them, I would want it opened so I knew EXACTLY what is inside....
Manufacturers have humans doing some of the work, so mistakes can be made. How many times have we seen a knife for sale that doesn't match the box labeling ? It would be very disappointing to pay big money for something that was sealed, and a few years down the road decide to open it and admire it, only to find out it wasn't what it should be :eek:

I have always tried to be cautious about how I describe a knife or other item I am selling, and if anything, under rate it, just so there are no surprises. That said, I will be even more cautious in the future when I list something for sale. I take the best pictures I can which certainly aren't up to the level of many here, but they do clearly show everything.
Even at that, we still have to remember, " The deal isn't finished until both parties are happy ". However, buyers remorse shouldn't be something that a seller has to accommodate.
 
RevDevil said:
-Stay away from words like "Mint" to describe a slightly used knife, it sure isn't mint if you've carried it. Common sense is your friend, do not resist it.
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But Rev, a lot of folks don't seem to have any common sense as it's not so common anymore... ;):D

My policy and guideline is to be overly critical of the item I'm selling; it has worked well for me so far. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
The various terms are used to lie. LNIB is a lie. It is either new, never used/carried or it is not. Mint is meanigless, except as a coin. An honest seller tells you the true history of the knife, but that is rare. Most do not even tell you they are not the original buyer. That is why good pictures are worth it. But beware of the excellent pictures, but missing one key angle ;).

The coolest thing is the moralistic bastards who proclaim to be honest in other subforums, but when you read their for sale threads, you find they are only honest in their delusions.
 
Once out of the box, opened, closed, some people would argue that it's technically no longer NIB. Like you drove the car off the lot. They use the term LNIB. How about a knife you bought NIB ten years ago and put away in your safe? It's been out of production for eight years. Is it NIB? Or would it be preferable to call it NOS or "unused"? How about a NIB cheap production knife scrutinized under a jewelers loupe? I had that experience with a buyer who couldn't sleep at night after finding some insignificant factory imperfection. Your 98% may be my 95% so these measures aren't really meaningful. I guess it would help if BF standardized terminology. In the meantime, I never deposit my paypal pmt. until the buyer states he's pleased. Even if I think the buyer is unreasonable, I'll still cancel the paypal transaction and offer to pay for return shipping. Life's too short to do otherwise. What's the point? You don't have to deal with that person in the future.
 
It's especially frustrating when the knife is Nib and the buyer finds something very tiny, like a small scratch you can't see unless you examine under bright light while looking at an angle. I've had that happen on eBay and the buyer just really wanted me to refund a sizable amount. He never would return it though and I wouldn't offer him a cent back, other than a full refund. These production knives are never absolutely perfect if you nitpick. I don't like being held more responsible than the manufacturer.
 
I try to stay away from terms like NIB, LNIB, and mint when I post an ad for sale or trade. I prefer to use phrases such as used, lightly used, and very lightly used. Still broad terminology but paired up with a detailed description of any faults or quirks and pictures, the buyer then has an idea of what they're getting into that is as accurate as I can be while being slightly pessimistic.
 
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Reading some for sale/trade threads here:

Funny-Car-For-Sale.jpg



It's barely broken in... :foot:;):D
 
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Wow, I was very happy to find and read this thread. I had a recent experience here (still in the process of working it out, even though I'll still end up the loser, even if the seller follows through on the bare minimum request that I've made) that is directly related to this issue. One knife was listed as "NIB, collector grade" and the other two as LNIB. I'm not going to mention who the seller is or what the knives were, but the LNIB knives had multiple marks on the blades, and dirty smudges from finger prints on the G-10. (One had orange G-10 and the smudges were VERY noticeable, even without bright lights! And there was a nick in the G-10.) Seriously, turn on the LIGHTS, put on your glasses, and describe the knife accurately! A knife that is dirty from handling, even if it has never cut anything, is not LNIB! And if you want to keep your limited edition knife LNIB, wash your hands before you touch it! Good grief, I clean my hands more thoroughly before touching my knives than I do before feeding my children!

The blade edge of the "NIB, collector grade" knife was clearly touched up out toward the tip, making it shinier than the factory edge would have been (I know because I have seen many factory edges on this particular model of knife) and rounding the tip of the blade a bit. Definitely NOT "NIB, collector grade." It also had a very faint smudge on the G-10. <sigh>

The worst is when the seller is "surprised" when you contact him to report that NONE of the knives were as described, which makes one think that the seller is either blind or dishonest. I don't know how to give the seller the benefit of the doubt when the issues (especially the smudges on the orange G-10) are so freakin' obvious. He either didn't look closely (or at all), noticed it but hoped I was blind and wouldn't notice, or really thinks that dirty/nicked scales = LNIB. I don't know which of those is worse.

And the final frustration is when the seller plays the "I already spent the funds so you'll have to wait awhile for a refund even though I grossly overstated the condition of the knives" card.

I don't sell here (yet), but I do sell elsewhere, and I overstate the flaws so that the buyer will actually be happy that the knife is better than expected. That's what I, as a buyer, want, so that's what I try to do for buyers. It's not difficult. Mistakes do happen, but infrequent and honest mistakes are very different than gross negligence or deception.

I want to conclude by saying that I've had many good experiences with sellers here...and to them, I say, "THANK YOU!"
 
Don't let the seller screw around with you like that. If you paid the way you should have, paypal goods, you can file a claim and get your money back.
 
craytab said:
Don't let the seller screw around with you like that. If you paid the way you should have, paypal goods, you can file a claim and get your money back.
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Indeed, I never pay with anything other than Paypal Goods. In this case, two of the knives were needed (by me) to complete a collection (of this particular model of knife). Even though they were not as described, I decided to keep and work with them (clean them up myself and live with the other blemishes) just to have the collection complete. However, the third knife ("NIB, collector grade"), I wanted to return for a refund. The seller initially took a very aggressive stance and told me that I had to either return all of them or none of them. He eventually agreed to take that one knife back (on my return shipping tab) and refund me that portion of the original sale. The knife is on its way back to him, and I'm hoping I actually get the refund. If not, I'll have no choice but to turn to Paypal.

The other part of this that infuriates me is the "leverage" that the other party has when it comes to feedback. I don't want to leave negative feedback for some one because they will simply retaliate and destroy my 100% feedback for no reason.
 
I avoid giving any description of the condition of the knife, and instead take detailed close up pictures to display the condition. That way there's no debate.
 
Razdrazchelloveck said:
I avoid giving any description of the condition of the knife, and instead take detailed close up pictures to display the condition. That way there's no debate.
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I'm certainly not saying that this is your intention, but, unfortunately, that can be just another way for a seller to deceive buyers. I've not seen many posts here or elsewhere with enough pics of sufficient clarity to "describe" the knife completely. And I'm not sure how that resolves anything if the buyer finds issues with the knife that didn't show up in the pics, either because a certain angle was omitted or because the pic couldn't/didn't pick it up. At some point, a cautious buyer is going to ask questions to confirm what he/she is seeing (or not seeing) in the pics, and then the seller has to either put words to the condition of the knife or simply refuse to answer the questions. If a seller won't answer my questions about condition, I certainly won't be buying.
 
Hannibal24 said:
Indeed, I never pay with anything other than Paypal Goods. In this case, two of the knives were needed (by me) to complete a collection (of this particular model of knife). Even though they were not as described, I decided to keep and work with them (clean them up myself and live with the other blemishes) just to have the collection complete. However, the third knife ("NIB, collector grade"), I wanted to return for a refund. The seller initially took a very aggressive stance and told me that I had to either return all of them or none of them. He eventually agreed to take that one knife back (on my return shipping tab) and refund me that portion of the original sale. The knife is on its way back to him, and I'm hoping I actually get the refund. If not, I'll have no choice but to turn to Paypal.

The other part of this that infuriates me is the "leverage" that the other party has when it comes to feedback. I don't want to leave negative feedback for some one because they will simply retaliate and destroy my 100% feedback for no reason.
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Good point on the collecting thing. Sometimes it is more important to have the item even if not perfect. On the feedback thing, that is a tough one. The saying goes around here that a deal is not complete until both parties are happy. Your situation is different because part of the deal WAS completed but part was not and both of you are probably not happy. I don't know what to tell you there. That is the strange thing about feedback here. If both parties are not happy, then the deal is not done, and feedback should only be left when a deal is done. Thus, there should never be any negative or neutral feedback. Doesn't really make sense. And yes, retaliatory feedback is a worry. From what I know, only Spark can edit feedback. I am sure he has in the past but a lot of those situations are he said stuff. Perhaps Rev, Morrow, or another mod can comment on your situation specifically and feedback in general.


Razdrazchelloveck said:
I avoid giving any description of the condition of the knife, and instead take detailed close up pictures to display the condition. That way there's no debate.
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The problem with this is when selling a folder, blade play and action/smoothness cannot be captured in photos. I avoid sales that don't give even a basic description of these things, though there are exceptions.
 
craytab said:
Good point on the collecting thing. Sometimes it is more important to have the item even if not perfect. On the feedback thing, that is a tough one. The saying goes around here that a deal is not complete until both parties are happy. Your situation is different because part of the deal WAS completed but part was not and both of you are probably not happy. I don't know what to tell you there. That is the strange thing about feedback here. If both parties are not happy, then the deal is not done, and feedback should only be left when a deal is done. Thus, there should never be any negative or neutral feedback. Doesn't really make sense. And yes, retaliatory feedback is a worry. From what I know, only Spark can edit feedback. I am sure he has in the past but a lot of those situations are he said stuff. Perhaps Rev, Morrow, or another mod can comment on your situation specifically and feedback in general.
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In this specific situation, as long as the seller does refund my money without hassle, I don't have sufficient reason to leave negative feedback, because he technically offered to take them all back for a full refund, but I chose to keep two of them (even though I felt that he should have offered to knock some off the price of those too, due to the condition, but I honestly don't think he believed me, which then goes back to the part about being blind or deceptive). In general, though, the issue of retaliatory feedback does, I think, cause people to not leave feedback that would help others avoid a similar situation with the same seller.
 
For me, in most cases, I would rather negotiate a partial refund, rather then a full return of the knife. Of course this would depend on the actual condition of the knife and how poorly it was described, and how much I paid for it. in most cases as long as the knife is in good or better condition, and as long as the seller and I can work out some type of partial refund making the end price reasonable with the actual condition of the knife, that's the way I'll prefer to do it. obviously that all depends on how badly I want to keep the knife and what kind of negotiation we can reach.

For example, one knife I purchased recently was said to have been lightly used. When I got the knife, the last half-inch of the tip look like it'd been used open a tin can. He basically had no edge left on the last half inch of the blade. I was able to work out a partial refund and with about 15 minutes of very careful sharpening on my sharp maker it looks just like new on the edge and almost impossible to tell that it's been touched up.

BUT. If I ever decide to sell the knife I will have to disclose that the edge has been touched up on a sharp maker which will reduce the amount of money the knife will be worth.
 
I saw a post for a knife last night and the description was something to the effect of "like new in box with added finger choil and sharpened on Wicked Edge." Really? How is it LNiB after you removed a portion of the blade and sharpened it? If it's not exactly as it was when it came out of the box from the manufacturer or dealer- meaning no sharpening/grinding, has not been carried, shows 0 carry marks, etc. it is not LNIB and definitely not NIB. I see posts all the time for knives listed as NIB with "minor carry marks" or some such stupidity. People need to quit trying to squeeze every last $10 bill out of a sale and describe the knives they're selling honestly. And don't even get me going on that +4% BS. /rant.
 
One of the better ones: "Has your typical snail trails and lightly sharpened, but otherwise in mint condition".
 
uofaengr said:
One of the better ones: "Has your typical snail trails and lightly sharpened, but otherwise in mint condition".
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lol, that's a good one. just like has some blade play "but typical of that model"? I laugh every time I see the 'typical" flaws all these knives seem to have but they are somehow "mint" or otherwise in perfect condition......

Buyer beware is all I can say.

And I'll add that on principle will NOT buy anything using gift or add XX%. I see that in an ad and I move along.
 
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