Conversation with Shiva Ki

That's a great, balanced report from somebody who knows what they are talking about. Can't wait to read the next installment.
 
fisk said:
Jimmy, good tests for what you are doing and am really enjoying your review and opinions.
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Thanks, Jerry. I appreciate the kind words.

After reading over what I had written, I thought I sounded like a pontificating arsehat and was very worried about people thinking that I'm slanting things my own way. Later on other people will be running tests for themselves, including Doug. My opinions are not the ONLY opinions by any means... and it will be fun to hear the findings of other folks. (Yes, Flava... this includes YOU, you faux Frenchman!! ;) ) More about this later.

When I mentioned 'a number of other makers' who test their work, that list would have included you, Jerry... and Big John Fitch, Burt Foster, Don Fogg, Matt Lamey and a bunch more. I'm sure you realize that... and so do those other makers who do a lot of testing. And no one who does indeed test their work should feel left out of that list. David Boye, for example, once made THREE THOUSAND cuts in one inch manila rope using an 8 inch kitchen knife he'd made, IIRC. It's a claim I believe. Lamey has destroyed enough blades that I know of personally to make knife lovers weep. That's how the makers who are genuinely interested in making a superior blade find out what their work will do. Such self observation is not any fun. Neither is it easy, quick or cheap. But it is absolutely necessary.

And there's a lot of stuff that I did not even attempt to explain in the letter I wrote to Doug. Otherwise I would have written him a book rather than a letter. One thing I'll mention is 'belted edges'. I seem to sound very down on them when I am actually not. An example would be an edge I had a chance to feel on a Reggie Barker knife down at Batson's shindig during the cutting comp a couple of years ago. I have a sneaking suspicion that Reggie put that edge on with a very fine belt... although he *did not* say so. That particular edge was extremely keen and was put on a blade which had been ground very flat all the way down to the edge... so the belted bevel (if indeed it was belted) was extremely narrow. To resharpen *that particular* belted edge with a stone / hone would have been a very easy task. So... there are belted edges, and then there are other belted edges. My concern is that a knife's owner be able to quickly and easily resharpen an edge. Otherwise they're left hanging once the edge does dull.

More blather later. I'm actually trying to get some work done.

Old Fingernail Gnawing Jimmy
 
flava said:
Good read! :thumbup:
I'll try the paper towel thing on a knife or two when I get home ;)
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This man is a very evil relative of mine. DO NOT believe a word he says unless it's something good about me, Me, MEEEEEEE. He's been trying to hire me to tile his driveway at a salary of US $3.00 per hour. I've told him, and I'll say so in public, that I will *not* work on his drive for less than US $ 4.50 per hour. :grumpy: Plus room and board.

Jimmy;)
 
Fascinating stuff - I'm looking forward to reading the rest.

Jimmy - I wonder what you think of the profile of Jpz swords for cutting. Obviously, they're known for a good cutting hability, but the apple seed profile make them very hard to sharpen (in fact, I am not sure theyr were even sharpened - polished, yes, sharpened, I am not sure).
 
Joss and others,
I forwarded a couple of Jimmy's Emails(one w/pics of the tanto) to Gary and he will post when he gets home from work. :cool:
Edited to add:When Jimmy Fikes returned and posted, this thread had exactly 1,400 views.

Doug
 
i wonder how many of us have knives that would pass jimmy's tests. i have to get some cigarette paper...

hans
 
From email to Doug, from Jimmy Fikes;

Doug,

Of course you can post that the knife arrived. And anything I write / do / or say, as well. I'm just sending you my thoughts / insights in as much detail (and I hope all the blather makes some sense) as possible. I'm sure you realize that I'm being observationly rather than 'judgemental'... and that you know the comments I made about David Boye's work was 'high prasie' indeed from this old grouch, although some would only see the negative I wrote and not the positive. And I have no intention of posting anything to the forum that's not positive... or at worst 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' kind of remarks about Shiva's work. He's caught enough flak as it is for goodness sake.

And, yes, I'll be happy to do a 2 X 4 chops. That test should have zero chance of harming the blade if I avoid knots... which I will. And, what I'd like is for you to do some of your own testing when I send Shiva's blade back along with my interpretation of it... including your own 2 X 4 chopping. Whenever possible do your own testing and draw your own conclusions.

And THANK YOU! Primitive was the word I was looking for to describe Shiva's knife... BUT apparently 'primitive' has a different meaning for me than for those who would use it in a derogatory manner. I love primitive stuff of all kinds, and if I see my own work as anything, I see it as primitive and elemental as I can make it within the confines of my own style. I think I would have actually liked the sheath better without the rayskin. I like the look of the 'obviously handstiched' leather and like the design, too. That he hangs the knife at an angle appeals to me. Long ago I used to make sheaths that had a swiveling belt hook on them. I placed the hook at a point on the sheath, so that when the knife was in it, the sheath hung at just about the angle Shiva's is made to do. I like a crossdraw sheath on long and longer blades... so Shiva and I are thinking along the same lines there. The only advantage I see for the system I used to use was that the belt 'hook' on the sheath allowed knife and sheath to simply be lifted off the belt when, say, one was sliding into a truck or sitting in a truck seat. The hook was curved in such a manner that the sheath, or sheathed knife, could in no way be made to come off the belt by accident. You would have gotten a chuckle out of seeing me test those rigs... jumping up and down and up and down and running over uneven ground and jumping up on stuff or down into ditches... all in an effort to get the hook (and knife) to come off the belt. But it didn't. ;-)

Shiva's sheath arrived with the knife (obviously)!! Should have mentioned that in the first note but was too excited and frazzled.

I got a laugh out of this, Doug:
"everything else you wrote is SPOT ON.I guess that's why you're JIMMY FIKES "
Being JIMMY FIKES and a dollar will get ya a plain ole cup of coffee almost anywhere!! LOL But I'm glad that at least some of my guesses were correct.

I'm currently wrapping the handle on that tanto I mentioned. Should be finished by tomorrow, although the stuff I harden the cord might not be fully dried by then. Below is a pic of the blade. Nothing special, but cuts well and looks okay. Pics are my usual crappy stuff. It's hard to hold the blade in one hand and take a pic with the other. The good part of taking lousy pics is that the knife always looks better than the pics rather than the other way round. Pics are prior to me wrapping the handle, of course.

beveled side of blade

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flat side of blade

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All the best for ya,

Jimmy (the old bastid)
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Nice Jimmy, good looking knife too!
G2
 
third email from Jimmy Fikes to Leatherbird;

Hi, Doug...

Just thought I'd let you know that I've started work on my version of Shiva's Small Spirit blade. Blade will be very similar in overall shape to Shiva's, but will probably have very little distal taper. On this length blade I like weight in the blade. Handle will be totally different since I'll be doing my full tang / cord wrap handle. I'm going with a very simple shape for the handle just to contrast with Shiva's Small Spirit blade. My cord wrap handles cannot be called 'comfortable' until one is used to them because they are relatively 'thin' in cross section (making the handle very flat) and because the handles are relatively 'rough' where the string crosses on the wrap. Both the flatness and the roughness are intentional. With a flat handled knife, I know exactly where the edge is at all times, even if you handed it to me with my eyes closed. The edge of the blade indexes with the flat sides of the handle.Going to the opposite extreme, a round handle would make it very difficult for the user to know where the edge was whether he was slicing, chopping, or making a cut in a fight. The roughness provides a positive gripping surface. The hand will not slip no matter the amount of force applied to a thrust / cut or slash. When working with animals... gutting and quartering... or fighting humans, for that matter... material and fluids tend to get into the space between the individual cords, but is easily washed out... and this slight inconvience is (to me) more than balanced out by the positive grip the wrapped handle provides even when it is covered with blood / fat / tissue.

Matt Lamey is supposed to arrive Saturday and intends to stay for a few days. I hope to finish the knife up during his stay so that we can both test Shiva's blade at the same time we're testing mine (only rope cutting and chopping a 2 X 4 or 2 X 6 for the Small Spirit). Although I intend to do the chopping at what I would call a moderate intensity (as if I had 100 studs to cut through and didn't want to wear myself out on the first one), I'm still a bit concerned about the handle construction on the Small Spirit. My guess is that it will hold up fine, but I still don't like the fact that the two pieces of wood which make up the handle are only held together with epoxy of some sort. If you consider the length of the handle and the rather short and narrow tang, I'd prefer to see some metal pins through the wood as reinforcement. I've seen such pins on some of Shiva's work (the Small Spirit on his website, for example). That said, I'll be as careful as possible while cutting not to apply any lateral pressure to the end of the handle so as to avoid the possibility of splitting the glue joint. The tang has been mated to the wood with the use of some sort of exoxy, also. The usual method of fitting wood to tang is to cut the channel in the wood so that the wood fits the tang as closely as possible. Then, once the handle halves are glued together and the epoxy has set up, the tang of the blade is coated with vaseline, or something similar, and inserted into the tang channel after freshly mixed epoxy has been put into the hole. This method produces a very close fit of tang to epoxy in the channel in the wood. The vaseline coating on the tang allows the tang to be pulled out of the expoxy so the blade / guard / handle can be 'taken down'. The fit in Shiva's knife handle seems solid and I'll be interested to see if it loosens during the chopping.

Just wanted to keep you updated on the happenings here.

Best regards,

Jimmy
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There you go sir, third in the line of emails,
G2
 
Gary,
First off, thanks again,kind sir. :thumbup:

RogerP said:
Jimmy, that was extremely informative and very
well written. Content like that is not seen every day and it is appreciated.

Roger
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Jimmy,
Sorry for the short Email,what Roger says about covers it.
Thanks for keeping me posted.
Fascinating stuff,indeed. :cool:

Doug
 
Got a Q for you...

Regarding Shiva's sheath, you mentioned how you made one similar :"I like the look of the 'obviously handstiched' leather and like the design, too. That he hangs the knife at an angle appeals to me. Long ago I used to make sheaths that had a swiveling belt hook on them. I placed the hook at a point on the sheath, so that when the knife was in it, the sheath hung at just about the angle Shiva's is made to do. I like a crossdraw sheath on long and longer blades... so Shiva and I are thinking along the same lines there. The only advantage I see for the system I used to use was that the belt 'hook' on the sheath allowed knife and sheath to simply be lifted off the belt when, say, one was sliding into a truck or sitting in a truck seat. The hook was curved in such a manner that the sheath, or sheathed knife, could in no way be made to come off the belt by accident. You would have gotten a chuckle out of seeing me test those rigs... jumping up and down and up and down and running over uneven ground and jumping up on stuff or down into ditches... all in an effort to get the hook (and knife) to come off the belt. But it didn't. ;-)"

Any chance you have a pic of your version? It sounds like the style I'd love to have made for more than one of mine! :D

If not, mind if I use your description when I do seek to have one made?

Thanks!
 
Hi, Joeshredd

I think I do have a pic somewhere but am in the process of moving from where I currently live to another house my wife and I own, so have no idea where the photo is at present. IIRC, Flavius started a thread a number of months back in which he posted some pics of knives he'd been able to see and handle at a knife shop in Paris that is run by friends of his. Name of the shop escapes me right now, but Flavius will remember. Among the photos posted was a big Damascus Bowie that I made around 1982-83, and I believe a sheath of the type you mentioned was shown in a photo along with the Bowie. I'm not sure the hook is visible, but may be wrong on that. I'm pretty sure you can see two fileworked 'nuts' on the front of the sheath that are threaded on flathead bolts that run through a metal reinforcing plate on the back of the sheath. The 'belt hook' is attached to the reinforcing plate via a swiveling rivet.

If our lazy, good for naught friend, Flavius can't find that photo for ya, I'll try to scratch one up somewhere.

Feel free to use the description if you're having a sheath made. I always really liked them and hope you will, too.

Best regards,

Jimmy
 
leatherbird said:
IIRC,the knife shop in Paris is the Armes Bastille.

Doug
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Thanks, Doug... I believe you're correct.

I found a link that should work, too. Look for the sheathed Bowie on this page which shows a few knives of mine made over the years. The 'belt hook' is up behind the Bowie guard at an angle. The hook curves downward far enough so that the bottom is well below the pivot pin (not visible in the photo)... and that's what keeps the sheath in place during movement.

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={3F131C61-974D-457D-B1A6-F948F3E15FC6}&AlbumId={B05E2C94-FA0F-444F-ADE9-DB2296FDB32D}&GroupId={1B766819-4B3F-4A18-A886-42F22773F5F8}

If the link doesn't work, I'll try something else.

Jimmy
 
flava said:
I have to do all the work :D


Thank you, thank you, thank you for the photos. But you're wrong about YOU having to do all the work,my friend. It's you *and* Maggie who have to do all the work! :D

Oana and I are so very lucky. :thumbup:

I should mention that the knife I'm making for Flavius won't cut anything. Something seems to have gone wrong with the heat treat. But I know you won't mention it to him.

Oliver... Jimmy's evil twin:grumpy:
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Joss said:
Fascinating stuff - I'm looking forward to reading the rest.

Jimmy - I wonder what you think of the profile of Jpz swords for cutting. Obviously, they're known for a good cutting hability, but the apple seed profile make them very hard to sharpen (in fact, I am not sure theyr were even sharpened - polished, yes, sharpened, I am not sure).
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Hi, Joss

I think the profile of many Japanese swords were outstanding for the purpose of cutting. I think others were probably average, and some even very poor. One must take into account when discussing Japanese blades that there were a large number of different blade styles and blade cross sections (including chisel ground, if I‘m not mistaken… hehehe), and even more variation in width and thickness of the blades depending on the ideas of any particular smith. And you should keep in mind that the number of smiths was very large, and the number of blades forged by some of those smiths was truly staggering. I’m also sure that the person who would use the blade frequently had input as far as blade geometry. But the only way I could give you a definitive (definitive from my view point, at any rate) answer to the question is to narrow the scope of the question down to one particular sword and have that sword in hand for testing. Conjecture and speculation have some value, but nothing will replace a thorough test of a blade to reveal it‘s strengths and weaknesses..

You say that Japanese blades are known for good cutting ability. I’d agree up to a point, but would have to ask just what they’re good at cutting? Wet tatami mats? Green bamboo? The bodies of condemned criminals? I might add small twigs or the occasional piece of cloth or unlucky peasant during feudal times, or the necks of prisoners of war in more modern times. I don’t think any of those things constitute much of a ‘test’, with the exception of some of the bones in the human body, notably the hip girdle. And, yes, I do know that blades were occasionally subjected to other tests… attempting to cut a helmet… or being slammed edge down onto a flat metal plate. But I don’t even consider those tests particularly telling, especially when one considers that most of that kind of testing was done by men who knew exactly how to use the sword under the given circumstances. A blade wielded by an expert that cuts a helmet with little or no damage to the blade means nothing unless the same blade, without the cross section of the blade or it’s edge being modified, can also prove itself able to cut many other materials with equal ease.

Edges then, just as now, would have needed to be tailored to a particular task. And, again, all the design elements would be the call of the smith, the user or both. Speaking generally, the thicker the edge and the less acute the blade bevel dropping down to the edge, the more shock the sword could withstand, but the less well it would ‘cut’. And the reverse is also true. When it comes to the functional aspects of a blade, everything is a juggling act… gain in one area, lose in another. But I will say this on your question concerning edges: for my money a properly shaped appleseed edge has the very best combination of toughness / sharpness / ease of sharpening. That’s why I use that edge configuration on every blade I forge. If I thought a different edge geometry would perform *all* that I ask of an edge, I’d use it.

As far as the sharpening / polishing issue, I would think that blades were indeed ‘sharpened’. I also think that the final steps of ‘polishing’ to bring out all the details of the blade steel / heat treat lead to a less sharp edge than that on a blade that was sharpened for the sole purpose of creating a keen edge.

There are lots of students of the Japanese sword out there. Please chime in with more info. I’ve kept my answers to Joss generalized. Detailed answers would definitely require a thread (or threads) of their own.

A final thought: It might be well to remember when thinking about Japanese sword shapes and edges and *weapons* that Miyamoto Musashi (one of Japan’s greatest warriors and duelists, and the author of ’The Book of Five Rings’) was just as comfortable and skilled at cracking skulls with a wooden bokken as he was at splitting them with a steel katana. ;)

Cheers,

Jimmy
 
Flava and Leatherbird,

Thanks for providing the info on that sheath! It wasn't exactly what I was envisioning, but I really like what you've done with that carry method: Medieval comes to mind, but since I admire the mechanical artistry in a lot of what took place during much of that era, understand I use 'medieval' in a very positive manner! :thumbup:

And coupled with that style blade, I'd imagine that to have been a very functional tool and carry method.

Thanks again for taking the time out from what seems to be a very busy time in your life at the moment to answer my Q's...


Threads like this are what keeps me interested in the knife world: from a contentious beginning, through some interesting points of view to a well presented and rational examination of the subject and I've come away with way more info than I would have imagined.

I thank you all involved in this discourse for making my membership here totally worthwhile!!! :thumbup:
 
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