Okay, folks...
Heres the rest of the report on the cutting tests. I sent a copy along to Doug prior to posting this and he asked me to post the info unedited. When doing a final read-over, I did change a word or two for clarity, but none of the actual info. I'll also be sending a few photos to G2 who has kindly offered to post them for me.
I'll have to admit that the testing was a lot of fun, although the report writing was not. I've tried to be as accurate with the information I've given as possible without taking too much time or space. That's not an easy task... at least not for me. I'll also say that Shiva's toothy edge held up better than I expected... although I did expect it to be hell-for-sharp at the start of the tests. I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't belted edges on some of my knives in the future. It's been a very long time since I'd put an edge on that way, and frankly, my poor old arms and hands are *begging me* to throw away the diamond hones altogether.
Break out your salt shakers so you can take a grain of the stuff with anything I've written. Those health conscious individuals reading this shall be permitted the use of a salt substitute or real 'sea salt'.
Jimmy
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A little information about the knives being tested:
Blade dimensions for Shivas small Spirit blade: Blade thickness at the ricasso is .24 inches. Blade width is 1.780 inches at the end of the edge nearest the guard, narrowing to 1.65 in the deepest area of the recurve and continuing to narrow toward the tip. Blade length from tip to face of guard is 8 inches. Bevel is ground the full width of the blade. Distal taper is almost full length of blade.
Blade dimensions for the piece Im working on: Blade thickness where the cord wrap will begin (approximate area) is .255 inches. Width of blade at end nearest handle is 1.91 inches, and 1.93 inches in the same area where the small Spirit blade narrows in the recurve. Blade length to beginning of where the wrap will begin is 8 inches give or take an 1/8 inch. Overall, my knife is about 1/4 inch longer than Shivas small Spirit. Width of bevel is 1.32 inches. Almost no distal taper until the last 3 ½ inches of blade nearest the tip. My knife is noticeably heavier than the small Spirit blade
3 to 4 ounces would be a good guess
and the cord wrap will add another ounce or two. The weight difference is due to my blade being wider, thicker and with less distal taper (and a more narrow blade bevel) and from having a full tang. I could get rid of at least a couple of ounces of weight by drilling out the tang of the knife, but prefer the 'weight in hand to keep the piece from being too blade heavy.
Rope cutting with my version of the small Spirit blade:
When testing this particular knife of mine, cutting rope, it cut *less* well than the knife I am making for Matt Lamey... the blade I had used in the side-by-side test . I had to strop the blade three times during the course of making 275 cuts
once at 100 cuts and twice thereafter to be sure of clean and complete cuts. Once Id finished with the rope there was very little difference between the sharpness of this blade and the Shiva small Spirit in terms of cutting the rolled paper towel.
I expect the blade to pick up a bit in the area of edge holding during a second and third sharpening. They usually do, although I can only make educated guesses as to why that happens. The blade shape will also be refined during subsequent polishing
and this will help a bit with ease of cutting, too. But I certainly dont expect any vast improvement
maybe a few percentage points. The improvement certainly wouldnt make any appreciable difference in these tests.
Cutting a 2 X 6
Since I had plenty of 2 X 6 lumber lying around, but no 2 X 4s, one of the 2 X 6s was used for the test. I should mention that these are relatively small blades for chopping lumber (especially considering how weight to the rear the pointed profiles cause the blades to be), and that no effort was made to speed cut. I told Doug that the chopping would be done at a sedate pace, just as though I had a whole pile of 2 X 6s to go through and didnt want to waste all my energy on the first one.
Since Matt Lamey was still visiting at the time of the 2 X 6 test, he volunteered to do the cutting with the small Spirit blade. Plodding along, it took Matt two minutes, forty-three seconds to cut through the board. When I later tested my blade, time was just at three minutes even when I picked up my watch to check. Cuts were kept fairly narrow
a V that was only three inches wide at the top.
Time was not a critical factor here, the important thing being how well the blades bit into the wood and how comfortable the knives were when used to hack into fairly hard material. My knife bit a little better than the small Spirit, although youd have to be a real nut for cutting to have noticed the difference. The reason, Im sure, was (once again) the thickness of the blade just behind the edge on the small Spirit and the weight difference. Both blades made it through the 2 X 6 with no damage
except that I managed to drop my blade point first onto the steel legs of my freestanding vise, putting two extremely tiny nicks in the edge of the blade on the upsweep toward the tip. (I should be a professional Idiot
Id get rich.). After cutting through the 2 X 6, both blades would still shave arm hair and neither had been sharpened (other than stropping) since starting the rope cut.
There was a rather big surprise in the area of handle comfort, or lack thereof, with Shivas small Spirit. I realize that handle shape is a subjective thing in many ways. Some people like the way one handle shape feels and some prefer another shape. But when a handle causes a considerable amount of pain while cutting, thats not so good. The handle on Shivas knife is extremely comfortable to *hold*, but chopping into the 2 X 6 (when the handle was held near the butt, but in a full four-fingered grip) caused it to rotate into the fingers hard enough to cause quite a bit of pain to the pinkie and ring finger. Matt and I both found this to be so. He chopped through the board, but I did a bit of chopping after hed finished to find out for myself what he was talking about regarding the handle. The only comfortable way either of us could find to chop when using the small Spirit was with the hand choked up all the way against the guard
and even then the guard didn't feel at all pleasant against the forefinger or the web between thumb and finger. During subsequent cutting with the small Spirit in green wood, or even in bamboo, the handle shape did not cause any pain at all. I believe that the handle shape per se was not the problem
and that the same handle on a larger blade (such as Shivas large Spirit blade) would provide a grip that was both comfortable and secure. I believe the problem was encountered because, when a light blade is whacked into a piece of kiln dried wood the blade doesnt want to penetrate to any depth no matter how sharp the edge, and comes to a stop very suddenly. As a consequence, the forces in play cause the handle to rotate downward
thus delivering a pretty good smack to the two fingers nearest the end of the handle. Obviously, when a chop was made, the further toward the blade point (away from the sweet spot), the impact of blade / wood occurred, the greater the impact of the handle against the fingers. This is true of all knives, but especially knives with long tapered points
and even more true with a knife as light for its size as the small Spirit.
The same issue was present with the handle (What handle?? There was only a tang.) on my knife, but to a much lesser degree. These are only guesses on my part, but I would say that the extra few ounces of overall weight helped
as did the more weight forward design which provides a wider sweet spot, and a sweet spot thats not located just in the two inches of blade directly in front of the guard as was the case with the small Spirit.
Onward to shearing off tree limbs!
I had originally intended to cut a few limbs and let it go at that since I didnt expect any edge / blade damage nor any significant edge dulling when the blades were used against green wood. Instead I spent close to forty-five minutes cutting this and that just because I find a lot of fun in the doing of it. The painful finger issue with Shivas small spirit vanished once I was no longer using the knife in a manner for which it was not intended
chopping lumber
and it was a pleasure to use, although still a bit light for my preference. My blade would sever a larger limb / stem than the small Spirit, but I attribute much of that to the weight difference... some to blade balance. I didnt take a tape measure down into the woods with me, but would guess the largest limb sheared cleanly would be near the one and a half inch mark with all cuts being as close to forty-five degrees as I could make them.
I had not intended to cut any bamboo so as to avoid any possibility of damaging Dougs knife, but came to the conclusion that Id do a bit of boo cutting anyway. At this point in the testing I had plenty of faith in Shivas blade
and wanted something cut for the purpose of taking a few photos. Both blades cut the bamboo equally well (considering weight difference) when I did my part. G2 has kindly agreed to post the photos. You need not worry that youll fall over in a faint due to my exceptional skill with a camera! Lousy shots from me, as usual. It send along a caption to go with each photo so you know what youre looking at.
After all the testing, I gave both blades a good stropping and both will still shave
more easily on the parts of the blade that did not do the rope cutting. Neither knife sustained any damage except the dings from me dropping my blade on the vise leg. Both edges are still sharp enough so that I would consider them as being very useful for everyday tasks.
Conclusion drawn from the tests?? Theres not a nickels worth of difference in original sharpness or in edge holding between the small Spirit from Shiva and the similar blade I made. Any real world difference would really be splitting hairs
and, yes, the pun is intended. Quite frankly, Im glad this is the case. I was cautioned by more than one well intentioned person that testing one of my blades against a blade forged by another smith was tantamount to suicide on the Forum, and in the knife world in general. If I found my blade to be the better of the two, I would be called a liar! If I found Shivas blade to be better (and said so) then Id be thought a poor smith and an idiot. It was going to be a no win situation!! Bull-puckies, I said
and still say. I may never deliver a knife on time, or even deliver one at all, but I do have a reputation for honesty when asked to give my opinion (and facts) about knives
and I dont give a hoot about whose knives they are. And... I give all of you folks credit for being able to separate opinions from facts. I believe Ive clearly differentiated between the two.
(edited to add: I would never have agreed to test Shiva's blade if I hadn't thought there was a very good chance it would do extremely well in the tests. I'll also add that if I were a knife collector, I'd test the first blade I bought from any given maker... assuming the knife was a 'user'... before I ever bought a second.)
All in all, I prefer my design for a long list of reasons, just as Shiva would almost certainly prefer his design for his own list of reasons. But differences in tastes are a large part of what makes the world go round. Ill be interested in hearing Dougs report when he tests both knives. For me all such testing is a learning experience.
(As an afterthought I decided to try to shave 'muh face' instead of my arm with my blade... with the edge just as it was after the final testing and stropping... with no re-sharpening on a hone. Every few days my face begins to resemble a fuzzy cactus because I DO NOT like shaving. Anyway, I lathered up and scraped both sides of my face clean of whiskers easily enough AND without losing an ear in the process. I had enough sense not to try working on my chin or throat. The shave wasn't what I would call pleasant, but wasn't all that painful, either. To hold the knife, I choked way up on the blade with my fingers only on the spine and sides of the blade... nowhere near the edge. One of these days I'll have to make myself a straight razor and give that a try.)
Fire away if you have any questions. I'll attempt to answer them.
Jimmy
design as a functional carry and accessability would be right there,IMO.
,I used bubble wrap and had a cork to put on the tip but was all wound up about the testing and forgot to stick the cork on the tip,despite that it "survived the perils of the Postal system."
