Cost gap-USA vs. Offshore

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I’m not saying there’s a literally economic boundary. I’m talking about Chinese knives now approaching the cost of US made counter parts. I know how markets are set and established. Perhaps watermark is a better word.

Sort of. While there are Chinese knives that are more expensive now, they are still noticeably less expensive than other knives in their quality tier. Reate competes with CRK and the best US-made brands on quality but undercuts them on price by about 25%.

 

[DMG]

I agree. I really would like a pena x series but the price is just too much for me for a chinese knife. And i love me some chinese knives. But you’re right, when i can get an American made or American companies knife with an excellent warranty like zt or spyderco, it’s hard to say they are good values.
Civivi really hits the sweet spot for me as far as price and quality for a chinese knife. Cold steel does the same (taiwan). Any higher than that Im looking at a taichung spydie or something else.

Taiwan is not China

 

[sharp_edge]

Some people are confusing retail price, cost of manufacture, and appreciated value throughout this discussion. I agree with ferider that at these price points of Reate, RHK, and CRK (and in a sense even ZT and Benchmade), the cost of manufacturing contributes only a small portion to their prices. For whatever reasons, it seems to me the values of knives made in China is not appreciated as highly as those made in the USA, i.e., the secondary market prices. This is the only reason that I do not buy Chinese brands as aggressively as American brands.

Not related to the OP topic, but does it cost more to manufacture Shirogorov knives (made in Russia) than, say, CRK knives? I feel this is another example of the cost of manufacture is just a small factor of pricing.

 

[Bob Denman]

I've got WE, Civivi, and Ferrum Forge knives. All of them function perfectly
The WE Vapor was more money; but has titanium and carbon fiber in the specifications...
Well worth the money!
Honestly; it cost less than any of my Benchmades that are wearing carbon fiber.

 

[NG VI]

I've got WE, Civivi, and Ferrum Forge knives. All of them function perfectly
The WE Vapor was more money; but has titanium and carbon fiber in the specifications...
Well worth the money!
Honestly; it cost less than any of my Benchmades that are wearing carbon fiber.

I got a Vapor after they were discontinued and liked it so much I sprung for another with a stonewashed blade, since the first sale pickup was black blade only but for a super good price

 

[helobite]

I absolutely applaud anyone buying “Made in USA”, but I am going to say, the label has pretty much only has the meaning you want. I was very surprised that Made In USA is now a 55% content https://www.taftlaw.com/news-events...bidens-made-in-all-of-america-executive-order. I do remember when Made in USA was 100% material and labor

And then, starting in the late 1970’s, the content law got watered down. The system has been gamed, I remember a documentary about Chinese laborer’s building items in Guam. Since Guam is a US Territory anything made in Guam is considered made in the USA, even if all the labor content is 100% foreign nationals. And, as I recall, the same happened at Juarez Mexico. I don’t know all the in’s and outs, but the Maquiladora system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora seems to allow anything made by Mexican laborer’s to be labeled Made in USA.

So basically, you have to do your own research to determine if what you are buying is made in the USA or not, as the label system has been gamed to be meaningless.

I drove around South Pittsburg Tennessee, went to the company store, talked to the people there, drove around looking at Lodge warehouses, foundaries, and office buildings. And based on what I heard and saw, I believe that Lodge Cast Iron cookware, is Made in the USA.

There were a number of Lodge Buildings this size, the store called them "lines", but this might be where the iron ore is turned into cast iron.

It is a shame that you have to do this, but you have to do your own research, as you can't trust the labels.

​

 

[unwisefool]

I absolutely applaud anyone buying “Made in USA”, but I am going to say, the label has pretty much only has the meaning you want. I was very surprised that Made In USA is now a 55% content https://www.taftlaw.com/news-events...bidens-made-in-all-of-america-executive-order. I do remember when Made in USA was 100% material and labor

And then, starting in the late 1970’s, the content law got watered down. The system has been gamed, I remember a documentary about Chinese laborer’s building items in Guam. Since Guam is a US Territory anything made in Guam is considered made in the USA, even if all the labor content is 100% foreign nationals. And, as I recall, the same happened at Juarez Mexico. I don’t know all the in’s and outs, but the Maquiladora system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora seems to allow anything made by Mexican laborer’s to be labeled Made in USA.

So basically, you have to do your own research to determine if what you are buying is made in the USA or not, as the label system has been gamed to be meaningless.

I drove around South Pittsburg Tennessee, went to the company store, talked to the people there, drove around looking at Lodge warehouses, foundaries, and office buildings. And based on what I heard and saw, I believe that Lodge Cast Iron cookware, is Made in the USA.

There were a number of Lodge Buildings this size, the store called them "lines", but this might be where the iron ore is turned into cast iron.

It is a shame that you have to do this, but you have to do your own research, as you can't trust the labels.

​

I'm not sure I'd take that much time and energy to verify where a $40 pan was made.

 

[Akutila]

Taiwan is not China

Yea i know that’s why I specified Taiwan, i was just including it as an example of asian made knives that come at a lower cost

 

[kobold]

Taiwan is not China

Thinking about it, Taiwan is the real China.

 

[helobite]

I'm not sure I'd take that much time and energy to verify where a $40 pan was made.

I was able to buy a factory second chef's pan for $15.00 at the factory store. I knew Lodge was American made, because I purchased my first Lodge pan in 1982, and it was made in the US back then. I am absolutely fascinated by how things are made, and I looked at a Lodge video before visiting. My older pan was "cupola" made, a molder hand poured cast iron from a container about the size of a forty gallon garbage can. They don't do that anymore.

I won't buy a Chinese pan, I will pay extra for an American made cast pan, or better yet, a vintage American made pan. I really look, and try to determine the origin, because they hide that stuff.

But, if you are going to pay extra for made in the USA, it is worth looking to see how much of it is American.

 

[Frotier76]

Here's my view on China made knives...

China is better off at providing low cost cutting tools like Frost or the whole M-Tech/Tac-Force/Wartech/Razor Tactical bunch. Some folks just want a comfortable knife they can get scratched up and not worry about. They don't care if it's 3Cr13 or 8Cr13MoV as long as it can accomplish their "as needed" knife tasks. I could see a consumer combing the secondary market on some model they bought many years that they enjoyed a lot.

Stuff from Maxace, Kizer, WE, and Reate is where China's quality does begin to really shine. I carry a Glede by Maxace and I got it for $140. The guy who originally had it spent a year trying to sell it for $300 brand new. It's an excellent quality knife and I use the heck out of it. I enjoy the knife but nothing from China gains any resale value no matter how poor or well crafted it is so it's absurd to make it a safe queen. People who collect these brands are going to take a huge loss when they try to flip them years later.

 

[helobite]

Here's my view on China made knives...
t. I enjoy the knife but nothing from China gains any resale value no matter how poor or well crafted it is so it's absurd to make it a safe queen. People who collect these brands are going to take a huge loss when they try to flip them years later.

I agree. You know it took about two generations before American's began to value Japanese products and knives. The WW2 generation absolutely hated all things Japanese. I had veterans point at their Zenith TV and say "see not Japanese"! I knew it would upset them if I pointed it, while Zenith was an American brand name, the TV was made in Japan.

Now that the Japanese cultery business has moved offshore, I see the post baby boomer generation paying a premium for Japanese knives. But Chinese knives, American's are suspicious and fearful of China, and with you, I really doubt Chinese knives will hit collectable status in the US, at least for the next 50 years.

 

[Oklahoma Outlaw]

My money stays in America as much as possible.

So many great American knife companies to enjoy.

This x 1,000.

 

[Mossyhorn]

I absolutely applaud anyone buying “Made in USA”, but I am going to say, the label has pretty much only has the meaning you want. I was very surprised that Made In USA is now a 55% content https://www.taftlaw.com/news-events...bidens-made-in-all-of-america-executive-order. I do remember when Made in USA was 100% material and labor

And then, starting in the late 1970’s, the content law got watered down. The system has been gamed, I remember a documentary about Chinese laborer’s building items in Guam. Since Guam is a US Territory anything made in Guam is considered made in the USA, even if all the labor content is 100% foreign nationals. And, as I recall, the same happened at Juarez Mexico. I don’t know all the in’s and outs, but the Maquiladora system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora seems to allow anything made by Mexican laborer’s to be labeled Made in USA.

So basically, you have to do your own research to determine if what you are buying is made in the USA or not, as the label system has been gamed to be meaningless.

I drove around South Pittsburg Tennessee, went to the company store, talked to the people there, drove around looking at Lodge warehouses, foundaries, and office buildings. And based on what I heard and saw, I believe that Lodge Cast Iron cookware, is Made in the USA.

There were a number of Lodge Buildings this size, the store called them "lines", but this might be where the iron ore is turned into cast iron.

It is a shame that you have to do this, but you have to do your own research, as you can't trust the labels.

​

But are their knives any good?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Some people are confusing retail price, cost of manufacture, and appreciated value throughout this discussion. I agree with ferider that at these price points of Reate, RHK, and CRK (and in a sense even ZT and Benchmade), the cost of manufacturing contributes only a small portion to their prices. For whatever reasons, it seems to me the values of knives made in China is not appreciated as highly as those made in the USA, i.e., the secondary market prices. This is the only reason that I do not buy Chinese brands as aggressively as American brands.

Not related to the OP topic, but does it cost more to manufacture Shirogorov knives (made in Russia) than, say, CRK knives? I feel this is another example of the cost of manufacture is just a small factor of pricing.

I would be exceptionally surprised if the cost of manufacturing wasn't the single largest cost associated with making these knives and setting the price. More specifically, labor costs are inevitably your single largest expense. I'm genuinely curious why you think that's not the case.

 

[soc_monki]

Here's my view on China made knives...

China is better off at providing low cost cutting tools like Frost or the whole M-Tech/Tac-Force/Wartech/Razor Tactical bunch. Some folks just want a comfortable knife they can get scratched up and not worry about. They don't care if it's 3Cr13 or 8Cr13MoV as long as it can accomplish their "as needed" knife tasks. I could see a consumer combing the secondary market on some model they bought many years that they enjoyed a lot.

Stuff from Maxace, Kizer, WE, and Reate is where China's quality does begin to really shine. I carry a Glede by Maxace and I got it for $140. The guy who originally had it spent a year trying to sell it for $300 brand new. It's an excellent quality knife and I use the heck out of it. I enjoy the knife but nothing from China gains any resale value no matter how poor or well crafted it is so it's absurd to make it a safe queen. People who collect these brands are going to take a huge loss when they try to flip them years later.

Actually, stuff from China CAN gain value. Anything Sharp By Design will either hold or gain value. That's the reason I put down money on the 2020 Evo preorder. If I ended up not liking it I knew I could sell it for what I paid and not be out any money. People routinely sell them for profit as well.

Just as with American knives, value depends on many factors. A standard, off the shelf We, Reate, or Kizer? It won't gain value, just as a standard off the shelf ZT won't. However limited production knives like Sharp by Design or the Gareth Bull production Shamwari? Yea, those will, just like a limited production Hinderer or CRK. Maybe not as much, but they will.

My Evo gets carried and used though. I could care less about resale value. It's just a damn fine knife, both aesthetically and functionally.

 

[Bob Denman]

I agree: True value in a knife comes from using it: not re-selling it.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

And then, starting in the late 1970’s, the content law got watered down. The system has been gamed, I remember a documentary about Chinese laborer’s building items in Guam. Since Guam is a US Territory anything made in Guam is considered made in the USA, even if all the labor content is 100% foreign nationals. And, as I recall, the same happened at Juarez Mexico. I don’t know all the in’s and outs, but the Maquiladora system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora seems to allow anything made by Mexican laborer’s to be labeled Made in USA.

From the FTC: "For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be “all or virtually all” made in the U.S. The term “United States,” as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions." Cars, textiles, wool, and fur require specific statements as to origin. For government procurement purposes, a product must be manufactured in the US from at least 50% American-made parts.

 

[helobite]

From the FTC: "For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be “all or virtually all” made in the U.S. The term “United States,” as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions." Cars, textiles, wool, and fur require specific statements as to origin. For government procurement purposes, a product must be manufactured in the US from at least 50% American-made parts.

I saw that too, but when you get into the actual exceptions, you need to have a lawyer who will find all the little carve outs that Congress passed for their buddies. There are more holes in the system than Swiss cheese.

For a time there were "content" specifications that were dollar value based. May still be in place. Essentially a product could be completely fabricated abroad, but polished and boxed by an American with a made in USA label. An American's time just to polish and pack, can be more than the cost of expensive work done by slave laborer's abroad.

 

[Boattale]

I’m not sure, don’t frankly care, because I only buy Made in the USA.

I'll buy from Europe, Central or South America, or even Taiwan. But China? Nope.