COUNTERFEITS removed from "Persian" edc blades?

[Blender345]

So you are for buying counterfeits because you can't afford the real thing? Again, that is trying to legitimize supporting an industry of theft. It is also frowned upon here.

Yes... if it was marked as the real thing but wasn't Id feel different. Since its advertised as what it is, then im good with it. This doesn't take away any money from the original manufacturer in my case, maybe in others, but I wouldn't buy those expensive knives unless I was very well off, in which case Id probably buy more guns anyways. If I think spending that much was worth it then I would. If not then I wont.

 

[craytab]

Yes... if it was marked as the real thing but wasn't Id feel different. Since its advertised as what it is, then im good with it. This doesn't take away any money from the original manufacturer in my case, maybe in others, but I wouldn't buy those expensive knives unless I was very well off, in which case Id probably buy more guns anyways. If I think spending that much was worth it then I would. If not then I wont.

Well okay then. You may want to brush up on the rules here and also take note of the attitudes toward the counterfeiting practices of which you support.

 

[bld522]

Well okay then. You may want to brush up on the rules here and also take note of the attitudes toward the counterfeiting practices of which you support.

Sounds good, craytab. Only one problem. In the real world, money talks. Brushing up on the rules and taking note of attitudes isn't going to change that, I'm afraid.

What you seem to be having trouble accepting is the idea that the vast majority of people who buy counterfeits don't care that they're dealing with thieves. It's not that important to them. What is important to them is keeping up appearances. And counterfeiters give them the ability to do that at a price they can afford. Like it or not, that's an argument you just can't win.

 

[craytab]

Sounds good, craytab. Only one problem. In the real world, money talks. Brushing up on the rules and taking note of attitudes isn't going to change that, I'm afraid.

What you seem to be having trouble accepting is the idea that the vast majority of people who buy counterfeits don't care that they're dealing with thieves. It's not that important to them. What is important to them is keeping up appearances. And counterfeiters give them the ability to do that at a price they can afford. Like it or not, that's an argument you just can't win.

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not talking about the real world. I am talking about BladeForums.com. People can do what they want in the real world. Hell, I don't agree with how most people go about their daily life in the real world, but that is their choice.

Here, we don't need to put up with the promotion or legitimization of counterfeits. It is actually in the rules here

 

[PURPLEDC]

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not talking about the real world. I am talking about BladeForums.com. People can do what they want in the real world. Hell, I don't agree with how most people go about their daily life in the real world, but that is their choice.

Here, we don't need to put up with the promotion or legitimization of counterfeits. It is actually in the rules here

No one in this thread is promoting counterfeits. Sure a few people have made their opinion known that they dont mind them, and will buy them but that is not the same thing as promoting them. No one is selling them or posting pictures and trying to convert anyone. And you seem to also have a more extreme view on just what is and isnt a counterfeit. Now if people were in this thread putting up pics saying they bought XXX counterfeit knife from XXX store and its the best thing in the world and everyone should buy one, here is a link, yada yada yada then I think that would be something to get in a tizzy about.

 

[craytab]

No one in this thread is promoting counterfeits. Sure a few people have made their opinion known that they dont mind them, and will buy them but that is not the same thing as promoting them. No one is selling them or posting pictures and trying to convert anyone. And you seem to also have a more extreme view on just what is and isnt a counterfeit. Now if people were in this thread putting up pics saying they bought XXX counterfeit knife from XXX store and its the best thing in the world and everyone should buy one, here is a link, yada yada yada then I think that would be something to get in a tizzy about.

Okay, then we see it different. People sure are trying to legitimize them. Also, I'm not the one who makes the rules one this stuff. Rev has posted them several times. I am just going off what he and the rules have said.

I don't know how much more useful this thread can be. Seems like we are just repeating ourselves over and over.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Okay, then we see it different. People sure are trying to legitimize them. Also, I'm not the one who makes the rules one this stuff. Rev has posted them several times. I am just going off what he and the rules have said.

I don't know how much more useful this thread can be. Seems like we are just repeating ourselves over and over.

Well I am sure that if Rev needed help he would ask for it. Or he would simply do what he does and mod if necessary. From what I read there are hard rules against selling such items. But that conversations about such things would be handled on a case by case basis and that if necessary to take action then those steps would be taken.

 

[craytab]

Well I am sure that if Rev needed help he would ask for it. Or he would simply do what he does and mod if necessary. From what I read there are hard rules against selling such items. But that conversations about such things would be handled on a case by case basis and that if necessary to take action then those steps would be taken.

Okay then...

 

[nick21]

What you seem to be having trouble accepting is the idea that the vast majority of people who buy counterfeits don't care that they're dealing with thieves. It's not that important to them. What is important to them is keeping up appearances. And counterfeiters give them the ability to do that at a price they can afford. Like it or not, that's an argument you just can't win.

I don't think that's fair to say. I bought certain counterfeits (Sanrenmus and the like, not products that claim to be what they aren't) to see how they feel, not to dupe someone else into thinking I have the real deal.

Knives are tools to me, not status symbols.

 

[Blender345]

Well okay then. You may want to brush up on the rules here and also take note of the attitudes toward the counterfeiting practices of which you support.

Just wondering what rules did I break?

If none, then why bring up the rules at all? If a $20 knife that looks like your $400 makes me happy, looking as good or similar to yours, and it's not labeled as yours is (made by a different manufacturer Whig is clearly labeled) then I'm happy. I don't show off my knives...

 

[Gastonknife]

Seems like this thread has been beat. Everyone has shared their opinions and thoughts. It would seem the only things going on here now are arguments, then next will be hurt feelings, and finally someone attacks the other.

 

[bld522]

What you don't seem to understand is that I am not talking about the real world. I am talking about BladeForums.com. People can do what they want in the real world. Hell, I don't agree with how most people go about their daily life in the real world, but that is their choice.

Here, we don't need to put up with the promotion or legitimization of counterfeits. It is actually in the rules here

True. But refusing to recognize what goes on in the real world doesn't seem to be a message BF wants to send either. It's a tough balancing act if you ask me.

 

[bld522]

I don't think that's fair to say. I bought certain counterfeits (Sanrenmus and the like, not products that claim to be what they aren't) to see how they feel, not to dupe someone else into thinking I have the real deal.

Knives are tools to me, not status symbols.

You're certainly not alone in that. But I'd suggest that most people who buy counterfeits do in fact want to dupe others into believing that they have the real deal. And if the only reason that you bought counterfeits was to see how they feel, do you still have them? I mean, why hold on to them if you already know how they feel and you know they're not the real deal? If you decided to hold onto them, could it be you're now just fooling yourself? Or are you hanging onto them for other reasons?

Part of the problem with counterfeits is that they work . . . or at least for awhile. If they didn't, people would stop buying them.

 

[nick21]

You're certainly not alone in that. But I'd suggest that most people who buy counterfeits do in fact what to dupe others into believing that they have the real deal. And if the only reason that you bought counterfeits was to see how they feel, do you still have them? I mean, why keep them if you already know how they feel and you also know they're not the real deal? Could it be you're now just fooling yourself?

No I'm not fooling myself. I like how the one that I purchased felt and am keeping it. Since selling them is harmful to our hobby as you say, wouldn't it be harmful for me to resell it?

I appreciate how you've been amicable thus far but that seems like a question with hostility hidden within it. I am under no illusion that the knife I have is genuine, but I still am not in a position where I can just drop $100+ on a folding knife just so that I can brag that I have the genuine thing.

And they do work. They work fantastic. Better than many give them credit for. Mine feels rugged and tough enough for me

 

[bld522]

No I'm not fooling myself. I like how the one that I purchased felt and am keeping it. Since selling them is harmful to our hobby as you say, wouldn't it be harmful for me to resell it?

Wasn't it harmful to buy it in the first place?

I appreciate how you've been amicable thus far but that seems like a question with hostility hidden within it. I am under no illusion that the knife I have is genuine, but I still am not in a position where I can just drop $100+ on a folding knife just so that I can brag that I have the genuine thing.

Yep. Like I said, money talks.

And they do work. They work fantastic. Better than many give them credit for. Mine feels rugged and tough enough for me

And that's one of the reasons they're not going to go away. As much as fanatics would like to believe otherwise, counterfeits work. In fact, as you point out, some of them work well and are very well made. That's why, if you're going to argue against counterfeits, it's best to stay on the moral side of the argument. Attack the counterfeiters and not their products and you cannot be defeated. I mean, show of hands. How many people think it's OK to do business with criminals?

See what I mean?

 

[nick21]

Morality isn't necessarily objective. Using someone else's design doesn't seem evil to me, like some of you are painting it as. I doubt I'm the only one who feels like this.

Was it harmful? Maybe. All I know it was cheaper than what Benchmade was offering.

All I gain from buying the real deal is bragging rights. And I hate bragging. I dislike treading on others, like myself, who cannot just buy a $100+ product without a second thought. I especially hate shaming them. I'm not willing to bully others because of their financial situation. Truthfully that seems much more morally wrong than stealing someone's intellectual property.

Maybe companies like Ganzo will inspire Benchmade to make a budget line.

 

[RevDevil]

Well I am sure that if Rev needed help he would ask for it. Or he would simply do what he does and mod if necessary. From what I read there are hard rules against selling such items. But that conversations about such things would be handled on a case by case basis and that if necessary to take action then those steps would be taken.

True. This sums it up pretty much. On a personal note, I have zero love for knock offs. I don't own a single one. If I cannot afford something I really want, I save until I can. I have bills and a family like most every one else, once that is taken care of and only then that is the saving and play money. If it were easy to save money and build a nest egg the economy wouldn't look the way it does now. People can spend their own money on whatever they way, but this is a privately owned forum and the owner has stated his opinion on this topic. We are all guests here so it stands to reason that we should respect his wishes.

True. But refusing to recognize what goes on in the real world doesn't seem to be a message BF wants to send either. It's a tough balancing act if you ask me.

It is a tough balancing act. You are also correct, so much so there is no "cut and dried" answer. Even though people seem to really want to have something concrete to cover every scenario, unfortunately they cannot see it is not possible. WE don't know how to correctly handle every single scenario. No way to know really.

 

[Thomas Linton]

This may be common knowledge, but it does not seem to be.

As far as the feds and international law enforcement are concerned, a "counterfeit" is a product labeled with the name or trademark of a company other than the one making the product or licensing its production.

Counterfeiting is the practice of manufacturing goods, often of inferior quality, and selling them under a brand name without the brand owner’s authorization. Generally, counterfeit goods are sold under a trademark that is identical to or substantially indistinguishable from the brand owner's trademark for the same goods, without the approval or oversight of the trademark owner.

SOURCE: International Trademark Association

18 U.S..C. Sec. 2320
(a) Offenses.— Whoever intentionally—
(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services,
(2) traffics in labels, patches, stickers, wrappers, badges, emblems, medallions, charms, boxes, containers, cans, cases, hangtags, documentation, or packaging of any type or nature, knowing that a counterfeit mark has been applied thereto, the use of which is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive,
. . .

(5) the term ‘‘traffic’’ means to transport, transfer, or otherwise dispose of, to another, for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or to make, import, export, obtain control of, or possess, with intent to so transport, transfer, or otherwise dispose of.

So the sale of a single counterfeit item is to "traffic" in the item.

Of course, you have to do a risk/benefit analysis if you don't have an ethical prohibition on being a crook.

(1) IN GENERAL.—Whoever commits an offense under subsection (a)—

(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and

(B) for a second or subsequent offense under subsection (a), if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not
more than $15,000,000.

So if a knife is labeled as made by Sanrenmu, it is not a counterfeit product if made by Sanrenmu or its licensee.

A product may, of course, violate a patent without being a counterfeit. Relatively few knife features are patented or patentable.

 

[bld522]

Morality isn't necessarily objective. Using someone else's design doesn't seem evil to me, like some of you are painting it as. I doubt I'm the only one who feels like this.

Was it harmful? Maybe. All I know it was cheaper than what Benchmade was offering.

All I gain from buying the real deal is bragging rights. And I hate bragging. I dislike treading on others, like myself, who cannot just buy a $100+ product without a second thought. I especially hate shaming them. I'm not willing to bully others because of their financial situation. Truthfully that seems much more morally wrong than stealing someone's intellectual property.

Maybe companies like Ganzo will inspire Benchmade to make a budget line.

No, morality is necessarily subjective. You either have it or you don't. Seems as if you don't. But don't feel alone. Neither do millions of other people. Amorality and unbeatable prices are what keeps the counterfeiters alive.

 

[nick21]

Amorality according to you. Again, morality is subjective.

And since this argument is veering into subjective territory I don't see it going anywhere to be frankly honest.