COUNTERFEITS removed from "Persian" edc blades?

[nick21]

If the owner of the design being mimicked is against the knife being discussed then yeah I'd understand.

So you'd be okay with someone mentioning a Sanrenmu or whatever in a "What knife are you getting this week" thread or something like that?

 

[RevDevil]

Okay, I think you mean my above quote possibly in combo with what you quoted. Again, I want to be very clear on this as to avoid going down a nasty path again. How do we go about asking spark? Tech support?

It's more of a common sense thing really. If you post a link to stores that sell them, selling them here, if you offer to help acquire them, things along those lines. Legitimizing them is also a gray area, but some discussion serves as education for new people to the world of knives in helping them buy the real deal.. You are asking for a very specific set of guidelines for something that is extremely broad and diverse. This is going to be dealt with on a case by case basis, but the moderators always reserve the right to close threads if they feel that the topic has drifted too far off topic to be saved. Pruning a thread of 30 some posts like Esav did is rare, so I would not count on that happening every time.

It seems somewhat silly to ban discussion of them entirely...of course that is obviously not my decision to make though

No one banning discussion of them, but we are not going to praise or otherwise glorify them either. You as members need to exercise some common sense here. If people are going to get insulting, vulgar, and create a need for us to intervene then we are going to act.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I think this will serve as good advice for anyone who considers buying a fake. Take it from me, keep it to yourself. I made the mistake of thinking I had enough years on this forum to be honest and open with others about how I enjoy this hobby. I was wrong. If you decide to out yourself as participating in a taboo practice people are going to voice their opinion. You cant drive up to a Ferrari convention in kit car made from a fiero and expect to get high fives no matter how well you built your car. Unfortunately we live in a society that will judge. And that doesnt mean people against clones dont have a good argument. They do. But I also believe in free will. And I thought that information should be allowed to be shared and that it was up to the individual to decide what is and isnt right for them. While I still believe that I think what I failed to realize that sure, I have free will and I will make my choices but that idea of free will and more importantly free speech will apply to those who disagree with my choices especially on a public forum. I sorta thought that sure it wont be the popular view but I looked at it like who doesnt do something wrong? I dont think there is a single person on this forum that doesnt make mistakes. Intentional ones. Most people on some level choose which rules they feel are legitimate and which ones they will loosely follow. I looked at it as no one is perfect, but at least I am honest about it. The one thing I overlooked is that while that very well might be true, this is NOT the Stop sign forum, The designated driver forum or the tax payer forum. Its a knife forum. So no matter who you are or how much respect you think you have developed you cant walk into a knife forum and tell everyone you dont give a damn if the knife you bought infringes on IP. To think you can you have to be a bit loco. Of which I am guilty as charged. I will NEVER tell anyone which way to go on this subject. Its up to the individual as far as I am concerned. But IF YOU DO. Shut up about it. You arent going to change anyones mind. And you wont school anyone on anything. You wont say anything that hasnt been said. When you have a taboo fetish, keep it in the bedroom where it belongs. Otherwise you out yourself for ridicule. So why dont I shut up and not talk about it? Because I have all ready put the nail in my coffin. And my opinion is all ready a matter of record. So there is no way for me to hide it even if I wanted to. But I will tell you this. I regret the day I made It known I bought clones.

 

[KingMC]

The Bill of Rights allows for all to have the right to free speech, what it doesn't allow for is your free speech being free from judgement and/or consequences.

 

[nick21]

I'm loud about my opinions and stubborn to a fault, both of which add up to make me obnoxious. So I would've probably shared my opinions about clones sooner or later. Regardless I'll try to keep from mentioning where I stand on the issue in the future.

 

[sirupatespecial]

The Bill of Rights allows for all to have the right to free speech, what it doesn't allow for is your free speech being free from judgement and/or consequences.

That's exactly right......I guess Judgement and Consequences....comes from whatever side you are on. And on and on and on......

So, let's take stock. Someone buys a clone. He's a thief. Cheap. P.O.S. Supporting the downfall of "respectable" knifemakers. Taking food from the mouths of babes. Ruining makers(no names will be revealed) and diluting their brand. Leading "newbies" astray and leading them into temptation! Destroying the OH! so virginal dealers and their customer base. And then....sneaking in and hurting the resale value of knifes that unsuspecting, non-dealer resellers are trying to turn...Etc. Etc.

And the buyer of said knives are just supposed to look up to the skies, ask forgiveness, and say "yes sir may I have another"? I don't think so.

 

[KELAMA]

I think this will serve as good advice for anyone who considers buying a fake. Take it from me, keep it to yourself. I made the mistake of thinking I had enough years on this forum to be honest and open with others about how I enjoy this hobby. I was wrong. If you decide to out yourself as participating in a taboo practice people are going to voice their opinion. You cant drive up to a Ferrari convention in kit car made from a fiero and expect to get high fives no matter how well you built your car. Unfortunately we live in a society that will judge. And that doesnt mean people against clones dont have a good argument. They do. But I also believe in free will. And I thought that information should be allowed to be shared and that it was up to the individual to decide what is and isnt right for them. While I still believe that I think what I failed to realize that sure, I have free will and I will make my choices but that idea of free will and more importantly free speech will apply to those who disagree with my choices especially on a public forum. I sorta thought that sure it wont be the popular view but I looked at it like who doesnt do something wrong? I dont think there is a single person on this forum that doesnt make mistakes. Intentional ones. Most people on some level choose which rules they feel are legitimate and which ones they will loosely follow. I looked at it as no one is perfect, but at least I am honest about it. The one thing I overlooked is that while that very well might be true, this is NOT the Stop sign forum, The designated driver forum or the tax payer forum. Its a knife forum. So no matter who you are or how much respect you think you have developed you cant walk into a knife forum and tell everyone you dont give a damn if the knife you bought infringes on IP. To think you can you have to be a bit loco. Of which I am guilty as charged. I will NEVER tell anyone which way to go on this subject. Its up to the individual as far as I am concerned. But IF YOU DO. Shut up about it. You arent going to change anyones mind. And you wont school anyone on anything. You wont say anything that hasnt been said. When you have a taboo fetish, keep it in the bedroom where it belongs. Otherwise you out yourself for ridicule. So why dont I shut up and not talk about it? Because I have all ready put the nail in my coffin. And my opinion is all ready a matter of record. So there is no way for me to hide it even if I wanted to. But I will tell you this. I regret the day I made It known I bought clones.

I think that it's crystal clear, where a majority of the member's, stand on this topic.

Maybe this would be a great time, to put this thread to bed?

 

[sirupatespecial]

The one thing I overlooked is that while that very well might be true, this is NOT the Stop sign forum, The designated driver forum or the tax payer forum. Its a knife forum. So no matter who you are or how much respect you think you have developed you cant walk into a knife forum and tell everyone you dont give a damn if the knife you bought infringes on IP. To think you can you have to be a bit loco. Of which I am guilty as charged. I will NEVER tell anyone which way to go on this subject. Its up to the individual as far as I am concerned. But IF YOU DO. Shut up about it. You arent going to change anyones mind. And you wont school anyone on anything. You wont say anything that hasnt been said. When you have a taboo fetish, keep it in the bedroom where it belongs. Otherwise you out yourself for ridicule. So why dont I shut up and not talk about it? Because I have all ready put the nail in my coffin. And my opinion is all ready a matter of record. So there is no way for me to hide it even if I wanted to. But I will tell you this. I regret the day I made It known I bought clone

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Oh, for God's sake. Melodramatic much?

It's going to be alright. I promise.

The only thing that worries me about this is that it seems you have been shouted down and degraded. By who? Or whom? Yep, that freedom of speech and expression thing is wayyyyyy overrated.

Hell, we have men marrying men and women marrying women. WTF? and where did that ever come from. And you can't buy a DAMN KNIFE that you want without "putting the nail in your coffin"? Just Damn.

BTW. "Putting yourself out there for ridicule" is the American Way. So deal with it. Damn.

 

[bld522]

When you have a taboo fetish, keep it in the bedroom where it belongs. Otherwise you out yourself for ridicule. So why dont I shut up and not talk about it? Because I have all ready put the nail in my coffin. And my opinion is all ready a matter of record. So there is no way for me to hide it even if I wanted to. But I will tell you this. I regret the day I made It known I bought clones.

"Don't take anything personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering."

The Four Agreements
-- don Miguel Ruiz

 

[nick21]

It's clear that neither side is about to change their minds. I haven't really, but I feel that I understand the opposition a bit better.

 

[Karda]

Ahem....fact of the matter is the selling and the buying of counterfeit items is Illegal.
By importing illegal items into the united states, a buyer is also committing a criminal act. One that could open them to far worse (legal) consequences than being scolded on an internet forum. An internet forum which who knows how many law enforcement, homeland security and customs agents may frequent or observe, even as guest users.

 

[nick21]

Counterfeits yeah, but things like Sanrenmus? I doubt it...

 

[Thomas Linton]

The Bill of Rights allows for all to have the right to free speech, what it doesn't allow for is your free speech being free from judgement and/or consequences.

While I get the comment about consequences, the First Amendment, among other things, prohibits government from interfering with free speech. It has zero application to acts by the management of a private forum.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Ahem....fact of the matter is the selling and the buying of counterfeit items is Illegal.
By importing illegal items into the united states, a buyer is also committing a criminal act. One that could open them to far worse (legal) consequences than being scolded on an internet forum. An internet forum which who knows how many law enforcement, homeland security and customs agents may frequent or observe, even as guest users.

18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services

(a) Offenses.— Whoever intentionally—

(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services,
(2) traffics in labels, patches, stickers, wrappers, badges, emblems, medallions, charms, boxes, containers, cans, cases, hangtags, documentation, or packaging of any type or nature, knowing that a counterfeit mark has been applied thereto, the use of which is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive,
(3) traffics in goods or services knowing that such good or service is a counterfeit military good or service the use, malfunction, or failure of which is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death, the disclosure of classified information, impairment of combat operations, or other significant harm to a combat operation, a member of the Armed Forces, or to national security, or
(4) traffics in a counterfeit drug,
or attempts or conspires to violate any of paragraphs (1) through (4) shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).

(b) Penalties.—

(1) In general.— Whoever commits an offense under subsection (a)—
(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and
(B) for a second or subsequent offense under subsection (a), if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.

 

[craytab]

Counterfeits yeah, but things like Sanrenmus? I doubt it...

Wrong. If it is a model with a counterfeit axis lock there will be an issue. I am not trying to be condescending with you here but if you take it that way, oh well. You seem to not be fulling grasping this concept. Any knife that uses the axis lock without BM's consent is in fact stealing. It is a counterfeit design. This is not a grey area. Anyone who thinks otherwise I would invite them to take the issue up with Benchmade. I won't be arguing with anyone about this aspect of counterfeiting anymore because it is a waste of our time and some people take arguing too far or too seriously. I will however continue to point this aspect of the counterfeit trade out to the nay sayers.

You promoted a knife with a knock off axis lock. Some SRM knives have this lock. If you promote those there will be issues. Please refer to what Rev said above and to what the rules of this website are if you need further clarification.

With that specific Ganzo knife it is not the look of the knife I take issue with. While it is a clear attempt to copy the Bedlam that attempt is a grey area when talking about counterfeiting. That is something we can discuss as there is no real cut and clear answer. While some will see it as immoral, morality is a grey area. Copying the axis lock is not grey. That is where the clear and cut issue is. The SRM 710 might look like a Seb but it is not a counterfeit. No patented designs were counterfeited. This is that grey area.

While I get the comment about consequences, the First Amendment, among other things, prohibits government from interfering with free speech. It has zero application to acts by the management of a private forum.

This is absolutely correct. No one here has freedom of speech (except for maybe Spark).


And to address PurpleDC, I understand what you are saying. It is important to talk about this stuff though. Long ago I was put off of these Chinese knock offs and it was because BladeForums. It was because of discussions like this one right here. People can learn and change their ways.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Ahem....fact of the matter is the selling and the buying of counterfeit items is Illegal.
By importing illegal items into the united states, a buyer is also committing a criminal act. One that could open them to far worse (legal) consequences than being scolded on an internet forum. An internet forum which who knows how many law enforcement, homeland security and customs agents may frequent or observe, even as guest users.

LOL, There are so many laws being broken on this forum on any given day I doubt anyone with any authority has the time nor the inclination to arrest anyone for buying a clone. You have USA based companies whos entire automatic knife line is imported from taiwan. THAT is illegal. You have dealers importing Balisongs from all over the world. That is illegal. You have american companies counterfeiting knives from other USA companies. Which that is also illegal. I could go on and on. There are laws being broken every single day in this hobby. The fact is that anyone coming to my house knocking on my door about such things will probably find they spent more on the plane ticket to come arrest me than they would find in knives that they can prove are illegitimate. If someone was importing quantities of known counterfeits and openly selling them I could see that raising an eyebrow. But if anyone thinks that counterfeits are the only laws being openly broken on this forum they either are ignorant and dont know the laws or they arent openly discussing it knowing it would bring unwanted attention to members they wish to protect. But that doesnt change the fact that laws are always being skirted by many. Which is why I usually cringe when i see people bringing up law when this subject is addressed. It rarely is ever used to defend or oppose any other subject on the forum even if bigger laws are being broke on a bigger scale.

Oh, for God's sake. Melodramatic much?
It's going to be alright. I promise.
The only thing that worries me about this is that it seems you have been shouted down and degraded. By who? Or whom? Yep, that freedom of speech and expression thing is wayyyyyy overrated.
Hell, we have men marrying men and women marrying women. WTF? and where did that ever come from. And you can't buy a DAMN KNIFE that you want without "putting the nail in your coffin"? Just Damn.
BTW. "Putting yourself out there for ridicule" is the American Way. So deal with it. Damn.

I hope you werent expecting an answer.

 

[craytab]

Oh, for God's sake. Melodramatic much?

It's going to be alright. I promise.

The only thing that worries me about this is that it seems you have been shouted down and degraded. By who? Or whom? Yep, that freedom of speech and expression thing is wayyyyyy overrated.

Hell, we have men marrying men and women marrying women. WTF? and where did that ever come from. And you can't buy a DAMN KNIFE that you want without "putting the nail in your coffin"? Just Damn.

BTW. "Putting yourself out there for ridicule" is the American Way. So deal with it. Damn.

I hope you werent expecting an answer.

I think we would need to know what he is talking about to give any sort of answer. Gotta give him credit though, he somehow tied Gay marriage into counterfeiting. That is extremely tough to do.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I think we would need to know what he is talking about to give any sort of answer. Gotta give him credit though, he somehow tied Gay marriage into counterfeiting. That is extremely tough to do.

Now that was funny. I needed that after all the seriousness.

 

[bld522]

18 U.S. Code § 2320 - Trafficking in counterfeit goods or services

(a) Offenses.— Whoever intentionally—

(1) traffics in goods or services and knowingly uses a counterfeit mark on or in connection with such goods or services,
(2) traffics in labels, patches, stickers, wrappers, badges, emblems, medallions, charms, boxes, containers, cans, cases, hangtags, documentation, or packaging of any type or nature, knowing that a counterfeit mark has been applied thereto, the use of which is likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive,
(3) traffics in goods or services knowing that such good or service is a counterfeit military good or service the use, malfunction, or failure of which is likely to cause serious bodily injury or death, the disclosure of classified information, impairment of combat operations, or other significant harm to a combat operation, a member of the Armed Forces, or to national security, or
(4) traffics in a counterfeit drug,
or attempts or conspires to violate any of paragraphs (1) through (4) shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).

(b) Penalties.—

(1) In general.— Whoever commits an offense under subsection (a)—
(A) if an individual, shall be fined not more than $2,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both, and, if a person other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000; and
(B) for a second or subsequent offense under subsection (a), if an individual, shall be fined not more than $5,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if other than an individual, shall be fined not more than $15,000,000.

Thanks. As you point out, the key word is "trafficking". "Trafficking" and "purchasing" are two different things. And the obvious counter to the illegality of purchasing counterfeit items can be summed up in a simple question. Was it illegal to drink during Prohibition? Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking any more than laws making it illegal to traffic in counterfeit goods will stop people from buying them.

If enough people exist to create a critical mass . . . and I'd suggest that's precisely what happened when it comes to purchasing counterfeit goods . . . no force on Earth can stop them.

 

[sideways]

While I get the comment about consequences, the First Amendment, among other things, prohibits government from interfering with free speech. It has zero application to acts by the management of a private forum.

Yup. :thumbup:

The owners/mods/staff have every right to boot, ban, censor, and set any rules they please. Us members have the right to go somewhere else if we don't like it.