COUNTERFEITS removed from "Persian" edc blades?

[bld522]

The problem is, counterfeiting is like drugs. There's no way to stop either one. All we can do is throw a lot of money at them in order to try to slow them down. And where do you think that money is going to come from?

Time to wake up and smell the Gucci, boys and girls. We pay for counterfeit goods whether we buy them or not.

 

[sideways]

Wrong. If it is a model with a counterfeit axis lock there will be an issue. I am not trying to be condescending with you here but if you take it that way, oh well. You seem to not be fulling grasping this concept. Any knife that uses the axis lock without BM's consent is in fact stealing. It is a counterfeit design. This is not a grey area. Anyone who thinks otherwise I would invite them to take the issue up with Benchmade. I won't be arguing with anyone about this aspect of counterfeiting anymore because it is a waste of our time and some people take arguing too far or too seriously. I will however continue to point this aspect of the counterfeit trade out to the nay sayers.
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There is a grey area there actually. The American system of intellectual property is ONLY applicable in the US or by mutual international treaty. They only become illegal when they enter that jurisdiction and can be demonstrably proven to the powers that be to have violated IP.

Also just copying the lock would not qualify as a counterfeit in my book. It's patent infringement sure, but to be a counterfeit the product has to copy the bits around the lock as well.

 

[craytab]

There is a grey area there actually. The American system of intellectual property is ONLY applicable in the US or by mutual international treaty. They only become illegal when they enter that jurisdiction and can be demonstrably proven to the powers that be to have violated IP.

Also just copying the lock would not qualify as a counterfeit in my book. It's patent infringement sure, but to be a counterfeit the product has to copy the bits around the lock as well.

Whatever you want to call it, the policy here is clear. Please see Rev's posts and also the policy of this website. People cannot promote or recommend this type of thing here.

Bld522: of course you are correct but that does not mean we have to put up with the promotion, sale, or recommendation of counterfeits/homages/knock offs here.

Just because we cannot stop drug trafficking it doesn't mean that good, honest, and decent people should throw their hands in the air and go out and buy some heroin.

 

[nick21]

So we can talk about any SRM, Ganzo, or Enlan that doesn't have the Axis lock, basically?

 

[craytab]

So we can talk about any SRM, Ganzo, or Enlan that doesn't have the Axis lock, basically?

It's more of a common sense thing really. If you post a link to stores that sell them, selling them here, if you offer to help acquire them, things along those lines. Legitimizing them is also a gray area, but some discussion serves as education for new people to the world of knives in helping them buy the real deal.. You are asking for a very specific set of guidelines for something that is extremely broad and diverse. This is going to be dealt with on a case by case basis, but the moderators always reserve the right to close threads if they feel that the topic has drifted too far off topic to be saved. Pruning a thread of 30 some posts like Esav did is rare, so I would not count on that happening every time.

No one banning discussion of them, but we are not going to praise or otherwise glorify them either. You as members need to exercise some common sense here. If people are going to get insulting, vulgar, and create a need for us to intervene then we are going to act.

The bottom paragraph was directed at you. Also, in another post Rev referenced this rule from section 5 and said it applies site wide:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=746&a=98

 

[bld522]

Whatever you want to call it, the policy here is clear. Please see Rev's posts and also the policy of this website. People cannot promote or recommend this type of thing here.

Bld522: of course you are correct but that does not mean we have to put up with the promotion, sale, or recommendation of counterfeits/homages/knock offs here.

Just because we cannot stop drug trafficking it doesn't mean that good, honest, and decent people should throw their hands in the air and go out and buy some heroin.

No worries. Good, honest, decent people buy oxy.

Seriously, I'm not condoning the illicit use of drugs or the purchase of counterfeit products. I'm just pointing out the reality of the situation. To the extent that we deceive ourselves into thinking that appeals to morality will have any meaningful affect on either of them, we fail to recognize the real issue at hand . . . the price we have to pay as a society to try to defeat them and the sacrifice we make by paying that price in a losing effort.

 

[nick21]

I simply don't have enough money for the real thing with the cost of living nowadays

But I still like to indulge in my hobby

So I'm not given much choice

 

[benchwarmer380]

I simply don't have enough money for the real thing with the cost of living nowadays

But I still like to indulge in my hobby

So I'm not given much choice

You do have a choice as there are a plethora of knives that are worth having in the sub $50 (even under $30) that come from reputable manufacturers that stand behind their product.

Kershaw, Ontario, and Spyderco each have diverse offerings in that price range. That's just a few examples.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I simply don't have enough money for the real thing with the cost of living nowadays

But I still like to indulge in my hobby

So I'm not given much choice

You had a choice, and you made it.

 

[nick21]

Benchwarmer380 I suppose you're right. I may continue to buy SRM, Ganzo, Enlans but I'll try to make sure they're original designs from now on

@Thomas. No choice was wrong to say. I did make a choice and I stand behind it.

 

[RevDevil]

I simply don't have enough money for the real thing with the cost of living nowadays

But I still like to indulge in my hobby

So I'm not given much choice

I've yet to meet a person that says they get paid "enough". Your financial surplus or deficiencies are no ones business but your own, don't try and rationalize anything using that as an excuse. You may have a caviar taste on a tuna budget. Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that is no ones business. Saying you don't have a choice is also not very accurate either. You can search for a better job, work a second job, get training for a better position. You ALWAYS have a choice, I don't buy that line of reasoning at all. You are making yourself out to be a helpless victim of your own situation.

We aren't going to keep quoting the rules, they are already there. If your discussion crosses the line of acceptability then you will be notified with warnings/infractions as necessary. It's not that hard to understand, I wouldn't keep pushing the issue any further, unless you want to test the system in place. Just my advice on the situation. YMMV.

 

[PURPLEDC]

nick21 I would heed the advice. Take it from someone who has been there. Rev is right. What you can afford is a non issue and its no ones business. But that could be said about your buying choices too. Its only someones business if you make it their business. If you are wishing on a star and hoping that the rules might change and these knives could be open topic subjects it would be best to look at that like a snowball in hell in the middle of august. Every thing that could be said on the subject has been said and it has been made clear where the forum stands on it.

 

[nick21]

Fair enough, I understand. I won't bring the issue up in the future...I apologize for any trouble I caused.

I'm fairly new here and want to stay part of the community, I don't want enemies

 

[bld522]

It's always best to get the lay of the land before you pitch your tent. A search on the word "counterfeit" is all anyone needs to do to get an idea of the regard that topic is held in around here. But even without conducting a search, a glance at the names of some of the makers and manufacturers who have their subforums here should tell people that positive statements concerning counterfeit knives aren't likely to be met with open arms. The topic may not be taboo, but I can guarantee you that any mention of it will bring the kind of attention most folks don't want paid to them.

 

[craytab]

I've yet to meet a person that says they get paid "enough". Your financial surplus or deficiencies are no ones business but your own, don't try and rationalize anything using that as an excuse. You may have a caviar taste on a tuna budget. Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that is no ones business. Saying you don't have a choice is also not very accurate either. You can search for a better job, work a second job, get training for a better position. You ALWAYS have a choice, I don't buy that line of reasoning at all. You are making yourself out to be a helpless victim of your own situation.

We aren't going to keep quoting the rules, they are already there. If your discussion crosses the line of acceptability then you will be notified with warnings/infractions as necessary. It's not that hard to understand, I wouldn't keep pushing the issue any further, unless you want to test the system in place. Just my advice on the situation. YMMV.

Well said.

 

[sirupatespecial]

I've yet to meet a person that says they get paid "enough". Your financial surplus or deficiencies are no ones business but your own, don't try and rationalize anything using that as an excuse. You may have a caviar taste on a tuna budget. Again, I'm not trying to be insensitive, but that is no ones business. Saying you don't have a choice is also not very accurate either. You can search for a better job, work a second job, get training for a better position. You ALWAYS have a choice, I don't buy that line of reasoning at all. You are making yourself out to be a helpless victim of your own situation.

We aren't going to keep quoting the rules, they are already there. If your discussion crosses the line of acceptability then you will be notified with warnings/infractions as necessary. It's not that hard to understand, I wouldn't keep pushing the issue any further, unless you want to test the system in place. Just my advice on the situation. YMMV.

I have read the rules. And I don't want to be contrary. Really. The only thing I saw in the rules(for about the 5th time) was this. And it's already been posted. Maybe I didn't read it right but then maybe I did. Here it is. One more time:

Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.

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This says nothing about buying, does it?

This says nothing about reviewing them, does it?

This says nothing about posting anything about a supposed "fake", "homage" knife, does it?

Someone point out to me where "the rule" has been broken in this thread?

Moderators do what they do. Which I'm pretty sure,....is enforce "the rules" as they are written. As far as I can tell, and I can read pretty good(well), If I want to extoll the virtues of an exact copy of......I don't know....a Persian folder, then I don't see where it's against the rules. If it is, then I'm fine with it. But I think that many folks have been blindsided by a "rule" that isn't even there.

There has been a lot of negative language posted by members here on this subject. As far as I can tell all the insults have been posted by members that are on one side of the argument. And it's not members that have purchased a "homage". And not one thing has been said about members that have insulted or called out these members. I don't make the rules, I just(try) to follow them. If ya'll don't want discussions about "clones", "counterfeits" or "homages" then just say so. But if there is no rule against it then both sides should be treated fairly.

BTW. A lot of the knives on the Persian thread sure did look a lot alike to me.

From "the rule": . Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.

Exactly right. Anybody that would do that is a crook.

 

[RevDevil]

I have read the rules. And I don't want to be contrary. Really. The only thing I saw in the rules(for about the 5th time) was this. And it's already been posted. Maybe I didn't read it right but then maybe I did. Here it is. One more time:.....................

Ultimately, we as moderators reserve the right to intervene as we need to if we feel things are headed into a bad direction. You can try to get as granular as you want, in the end if it reeks we can kill it with fire. Period. End of story.

 

[Blender345]

I don't think that it's right to call people like me parasites because we don't have enough money to buy the real thing. We love knives too and want to at least feel how they are in hand. Can we not at least pretend that we have a CRK or Benchmade?

Either way there is no place on the Internet from what I've found that we can at least talk about Sanrenmu & co without being bullied by self-righteous "law-abiding" uppity knife owners who have more money than we do. It gets tiresome.

I'll continue talking about them where I can unless the day comes where discussion of them are banned by the mods.

If you don't like it, fine. Say so. But don't talk down to us, don't call us beggars, parasites, legitimizing thieves. Can you not see how insulting that is? We don't have $400 to spend on a damn Sebenza.

I'm with Nick on this. I wouldn't buy one of those knives due to the price tag so theyre not taking away any sales on my end. If I can have a great looking knife that works then Ill buy it. If I someday can afford to buy the real deal knowing its superior quality then I will, but sometimes other things are more important, Ill buy the $20 knife so I can put the extra $$$ towards other things.... Like guns....

 

[craytab]

I'm with Nick on this. I wouldn't buy one of those knives due to the price tag so theyre not taking away any sales on my end. If I can have a great looking knife that works then Ill buy it. If I someday can afford to buy the real deal knowing its superior quality then I will, but sometimes other things are more important, Ill buy the $20 knife so I can put the extra $$$ towards other things.... Like guns....

So you are for buying counterfeits because you can't afford the real thing? Again, that is trying to legitimize supporting an industry of theft. It is also frowned upon here.

 

[Blender345]

You talk like everybody else on this forum owns a sebenza, and because you can't afford it you feel the need to resort to buying cheap knock-offs of it just to be relevant. Well, not everybody owns a Sebenza, it's not a knife that everybody can afford. Benchmade is a little more approachable, but again it's not for everybody.

Your logic is poor, just because you don't have the money to buy a real Sebenza or Benchmade is no excuse to give your money to the knock-off makers, because that's exactly what those makers are hoping. They are there for those who can't afford the real thing but still want it, and whether or not you choose to believe it, you are in fact stealing sales from the real makers and giving money to the makers who don't deserve it. People like you are who keep those conterfeiters and knock-off makers in business, I don't think it should be an accepted practice to talk about stealing sales away from honest knifemakers just because you don't have the money to buy a really expensive knife.

the most expensive knife I use is a Benchmade Rift, I can't afford a Sebenza but I certainly wouldn't want to buy a knock-off just to try it out, as not only am I not getting the real experience (which is why they are so expensive) but I'd be actively supporting the knock-off makers and their awful ways. No thanks.

Because I cant afford (or choose not to buy) a $400 knife means I cant own something like it? maybe if it wasn't made I wouldn't but as long as theres cool affordable knives to be had, im a fan. As Nick stated they don't pretend to be something theyre not. Not like they use the same materials or have the same craftsmanship, and even if they did Id still get it, as long as it doesn't state its made from a different company.