Thomas W
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Understand, sorry for my lack of understanding.
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Cpm-189?
- Thread starter nozh2002
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nozh2002
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Understand, sorry for my lack of understanding.
Sure, no problem.
Just keep new knives and steels coming, as usual.
Thanks, Vassili.
I just briefly read some of the posts in this thread and my opinion is ZDP-189 sucks. Yes I had an endura 4 with this steel and it rusted out under normal use. ZDP-189 is way too rust prone. I find D2 to be more than enough for everyday tasks. It wasn't all it's cracked up to be, that's why most of the better companies never bothered with it. Microtech/Benchmade ...etc etc. It is why only kershaw and Spyderco messed with it, they fit the more average quality not exceptional.
I don't think it has anything to do with quality. Spyderco and Kershaw are just more willing to listen to customers and bring out something more exotic.
nozh2002
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This is something new. Usually ZDP-189 was blaimed to be brittle and hard to sharpen (which is not true), but about few month ago I saw similar claim on Spyderco Forum.
Personaly dealing with ZDP-189 for 5 years, digging ground ground around sprinklers, etc - I never see single spot on it.
I think to get some ZDP-189 you need to go over all the trouble ordering it in Japan etc... Also profit margin is different then with let say D2 - World War II era steel.
Only companies dedicated to provide highest quality brought ZDP to US market. Spyderco making them in Japan, Kershaw has few sprint runs here and do not forget William&Henry which switch almost entire production to ZDP189.
Thanks, Vassili.
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You say "practical value" but wonder if titanium has been used.
Would there be an advantage to using titanium on the spine and ZDP-189 or ELMAX as the cutting edge?
It would just raise the cost IMO. I don't see the practical value.
This is common behavior for certain type of people to turn discussion on the personal level. I am not this kind of the person, if you like discuss me - you are welcome, but do not expect me to read or participate this...
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Never critical?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6937560&postcount=9
Sounds a bit critical to me, claiming the technology is purely for decoration and all that.
Hating on the mafia is pretty ridiculous though. There's the Busse-kin, the RAT pack, the Spyderco devotees, etc...
So what's wrong with the Mafia? They defend their favorite company but they're not isolated. Spyderco, Strider, CRK, Busse, RAT, all of those guys have followers who defend their company when it's taking incessant flack.
Your attacking of the Mafia is immature because on this forum if you make any harsh claims towards any company there will be fans who defend their company, yet you single out the Mafia?
Is there some personal vendetta against Kershaw?
I refuse to argue but I'm calling BS.
nozh2002
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Thanks for finding this out. Let me just quote myself then:
If you read this year old post and what was my reply today you may see my point year ago and it that it is same now.
Kershaw now have Blur with composited ZDP, ZT-550 with Elmax and Volt with M390 - exotic expensive steel for reasonable price which I was asking for year ago.
Thanks, Vassili.
nozh2002
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I recall ThomasW to tell Mafia about my Vedetta against Kershaw when he just came on board and later when Kershaw sub-forum just started.
Tell your Mafia Thomas - did I support Kershaw that time, when this Mafia was not exist?
Did not you send me pictures of Tyrade. Did not you listen to call for ZDP Cyclone? Who got first and post good pictures of Junk Yard Dog here?
Thanks, Vassili.
Tell your Mafia Thomas - did I support Kershaw that time, when this Mafia was not exist?
Did not you send me pictures of Tyrade. Did not you listen to call for ZDP Cyclone? Who got first and post good pictures of Junk Yard Dog here?
Thanks, Vassili.
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That's kind of cool idea.
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So if I'm reading this right, Thomas sent you pics of a Ti Tyrade.
You wanted a Ti and ZDP Mini Cyclone, and many people asked for a Ti Military, does that mean that they should be credited with it's conception? Think about it...
You took pictures of a JYD, ok, thanks for sharing, but there's nothing special abou taking pics of a knife.
How does this all relate to your hatred of the Mafia?
And yes, claiming the CB tech is for decoration was being critical. If I said "jimping is just for looks, it has potential but at this point who cares, it's just for looks and isn't practical" that would be being critical because it's obviously false. The same applies with your criticism of the CB tech awhile back.
So I'm still confused, why hate the Mafia? You didn't explain why, you just listed a couple contributions to the Kershaw subforum.
Many of your posts are pessimistic and I don't understand it.
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Bill86 stated:
We obviously have different standards on quality, steel, and knife care. Personally, I don't see and higher quality production coming out than Kershaws and spydercos. Chris Reeve obviously, but he is a much smaller producer at a much higher price range. In addition he doesn't cater to us steel junkies the way Spyderco and Kershaw do. In that, no one is close to them. Not even remotley.
As far as the Kershaw Mafia, Vassili ? They don't exist. They're just a figment of your imagination.
And they are damned good people too.
Don't forget to arm the alarm before bedtime.
We obviously have different standards on quality, steel, and knife care. Personally, I don't see and higher quality production coming out than Kershaws and spydercos. Chris Reeve obviously, but he is a much smaller producer at a much higher price range. In addition he doesn't cater to us steel junkies the way Spyderco and Kershaw do. In that, no one is close to them. Not even remotley.
As far as the Kershaw Mafia, Vassili ? They don't exist. They're just a figment of your imagination.
And they are damned good people too.
Don't forget to arm the alarm before bedtime.
Bill86 stated:
We obviously have different standards on quality, steel, and knife care. Personally, I don't see and higher quality production coming out than Kershaws and spydercos. Chris Reeve obviously, but he is a much smaller producer at a much higher price range. In addition he doesn't cater to us steel junkies the way Spyderco and Kershaw do. In that, no one is close to them. Not even remotley.
As far as the Kershaw Mafia, Vassili ? They don't exist. They're just a figment of your imagination.
And they are damned good people too.
Don't forget to arm the alarm before bedtime.
Eh you're telling me as far as production knives go Spyderco and kershaw are at the top? Higher than Benchmade/Microtech/Emerson I don't think that is correct. In this case of steel "quality" (which I'm not even sure ZDP-189 is a quality steel, in my experience it isn't) I guess you are only measuring what HRC? Saying the harder the steel the better? Not really understanding where you are coming from. The way I look at it, spyderco and kershaw try to experiment with this steel to get an edge on higher quality companies like Benchmade/Microtech/Emerson.
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I knew Russians invented pretty much everything, so we add ZDP cyclone to the list?The fact that you're putting Microtech in league with BM and EKI makes me (and probably many others here) wonder how much you know what you're talking about...
I'm not sure where you came up with this. Why, exactly, is ZDP-189 such a bad steel? You mentioned that corrosion resistance isn't high? So in that case, what's your opinion on O1 and A2 steels? I don't think you'd jump to call them steels of low quality, would you?
So... They would put this (so-called) low quality ZDP-189 steel in the knives to try to match the high quality of BM, EKI, and MT? I don't know... that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Besides, like we said, Spyderco and Kershaw have a history of listening to their fans while, for example, BM holds a forum where only positive speak is allowed of their knives. Of course if people in large numbers ask for steels like ZDP-189, Spyderco and Kershaw are bound to consider it in time (I even remember the thread in which the idea of the Manix 2 with the BB Lock in S90V steel was born.) With BM, it's what BM likes. And with Emerson, it's 154CM
The fact that you're putting Microtech in league with BM and EKI makes me (and probably many others here) wonder how much you know what you're talking about...
Quality.....and lets face the fact they rarely "mix shit up" because they know they have a good product and only use RELIABLE materials to make their knives
I'm not sure where you came up with this. Why, exactly, is ZDP-189 such a bad steel? You mentioned that corrosion resistance isn't high? So in that case, what's your opinion on O1 and A2 steels? I don't think you'd jump to call them steels of low quality, would you?
Well I'll be honest...I've never used either steel...so I cannot really say.
So... They would put this (so-called) low quality ZDP-189 steel in the knives to try to match the high quality of BM, EKI, and MT? I don't know... that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Innovative......ahead of their time, or try to be. Lets face the fact Benchmade and Microtech have ALWAYS relied on 154cm, S30v, D2 tool steel....why? Because they are proven steels. Kershaw and Spyderco try to get "AHEAD" of them with new steels...but the fact is they aren't proven or tested and no one really knows if they are hit or miss. But people are willing to try, thus the sales of kershaw and spyderco do better....also if they are the only MAJOR companies that use the "new greatest thing" they'll get all the $$$$$$.
Besides, like we said, Spyderco and Kershaw have a history of listening to their fans while, for example, BM holds a forum where only positive speak is allowed of their knives. Of course if people in large numbers ask for steels like ZDP-189, Spyderco and Kershaw are bound to consider it in time (I even remember the thread in which the idea of the Manix 2 with the BB Lock in S90V steel was born.) With BM, it's what BM likes. And with Emerson, it's 154CM
Everyone always wants the latest and greatest.......Benchmade and Microtech don't buy into that sort of thing they know they have a great product and continue to pump out that great product until there is a PROVEN better product then I'm sure they will adapt.
In advance I'm quite buzzed off my ass but I think my points still stand.
Jason B.
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I'll take a kershaw or spidie over a BM or EKI any day. BM's quality is not as high as most think either, and yes I've owned a few BM's.
The fact your ZDP blade rusted simply means you neglected your tool. My dad has had a ZDP endura for two years and it has never rusted, tarnished yes, rusted no. It also sees minimal care and goes weeks between any sort of cleaning while having all sorts of crap stuck to it.
In your defense you could have gotten a blade that was to one extreme end of the HT spectrum making its corrosion resistance atypical. I highly doubt that to be the case though.
You should have contacted spyderco with the issue so if it was a production problem they would have been aware of it. Instead you troll about your atypical results and possibly create bad visions for new users about what really is a good steel.
The fact your ZDP blade rusted simply means you neglected your tool. My dad has had a ZDP endura for two years and it has never rusted, tarnished yes, rusted no. It also sees minimal care and goes weeks between any sort of cleaning while having all sorts of crap stuck to it.
In your defense you could have gotten a blade that was to one extreme end of the HT spectrum making its corrosion resistance atypical. I highly doubt that to be the case though.
You should have contacted spyderco with the issue so if it was a production problem they would have been aware of it. Instead you troll about your atypical results and possibly create bad visions for new users about what really is a good steel.
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Yep. In their price range. They also tend to outperform a lot of more expensive knives out of the box. Hell, they outperform a lot of customs I've had. Note that they both produce knives from the $25 to $250 dollar range so it's good to keep apples to apples.
How much experience do you have with Spyderco and Kershaw?
I have pretty much given up on Benchmade due to build quality issues. I'm down to about 15 or so now.
The only Microtechs I really like are the S90V Socom Elite and a few autos. We all know about what happens when you have warranty issues, right?
Emersons? Yep, They're ok. Not my thing and I've sold the last of them. I don't put them above similarly priced Spydercos or Kershaws/ZT's though.
Al Mar is always good quality. Certainly well made, but not better than anybody else in the price range.
I'd put Buck above some of these companies in some respects, keeping apples to apples where possible.
Still, what works for me obviously doesn't work for you. You aren't impressed with ZDP. I am. If you think high hardness is all ZDP has going for it I question if you had a real ZDP knife. Sure, It's not the most corrosion resistant stainless but that means less than nothing to me. I actually prefer carbon/alloy steels and take care of them so I have no rust or corrosion troubles whatsoever with my knives.
You on the other hand rust out a stainless steel knife and complain about it. I'd be to embarrassed to admit doing something so foolish and amateurish unless it specifically was a test of that particular steel that caused such a result.
Yeah, We're different consumers with different needs and likes. To me, performance is everything. Corrosion resistance is not an issue. Toughness? Rarely a problem as I see every job as having the correct tool, and technique.
I've got 40 years of collecting and use of knives. I've sold knives, I've made a few, had some made for me by some of the better makers out there and have a working knowledge of just about every cutlery steel made into a knife in the last few decades.
Yep, I know what quality is. I don't only buy one brand and I'm pretty current on what's in production and by whom.
You think and buy whatever the heck you like. I'll do the same. I always keep an open mind, and try to learn something every day but I don't see anything you have to teach me currently.
Regards Joe/raleigh
Jason B.
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IIRC Microtech was one of the first to use S90V so now what's your opinion of them? Trying to get more sales from a new fangle steel?
You also might want to research S30V, most of us still consider it in the testing stages considering its not thay old and hardly a "proven" steel.
You also might want to research S30V, most of us still consider it in the testing stages considering its not thay old and hardly a "proven" steel.
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yep, 20CV too. I was never able to get one of those though. I had to get that in a SOG first.
So innovation, giving people what they ask for, and good marketing are signs of poor products now? I'm confused on that kind of thinking.