CPM 3V or INFI Folders

drrickso said:
Another user On here Charr swears by it, but I havent tried it yet... I have a few Busse's which also uses Nitrogen in their steel process so based on my use with INFI and Charrs using Vanax, it sounds like similar results.
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Heard my name (several weeks later with the echo on the internet ;)) and had to come and say this one thing really quickly:

INFI is a steel that I know relatively little about chemically, since it's production is somewhat proprietary to Busse (they don't like to talk about it at all really), but I have seen several chemical examinations of samples of the steel that have been done by a few rather...zealous...friends of mine, who really wanted to know what was in it.
According to those readings, and the specs that I have seen from some testing of actual INFI blades, INFI will be more apt to toughness than Vanax 35 (now known only as Vanax, since Vanax 75 was discontinued), and will not hold an edge as long with a thinner edge. The wear resistance would likely be lower than Vanax in INFI, but the toughness, and the general impact resistance of the steel, would be much higher (though honestly Vanax is already very tough). This would go in line with the intended uses of the steels as well, so I have no issue with this at all, and I think that they are both excellent steels for what they are intended to do.

I have used INFI, but I have not owned a Busse knife. I have only tested some that are owned by a close friend of mine. Corrosion resistance is higher than 3V, and honestly most steels in the same categories as INFI in toughness and wear resistance combined, but the edge retention is beaten out by a steel like Vanax 75, and the overall steel purity should be higher on either version of Vanax, at least compared to the samples that I have handled of INFI, and what I have seen from other people who have tried to get the exact composition of the steel.


Agurami said:
They have done a test of Vanax 75 vs. M390. The results page is in Russian, but the top of the two steels is Vanax, the bottom one in the table is M390. They measured the force (in kilograms) required to do the cut on a manilla rope after a set of cuts. They stopped cutting after the required cutting force reached 10 kilos. Results are below. As you can see, M390 pulled ahead initially (up to 120 cuts), but was outperformed by Vanax 75 in the long run:

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Vanax 75, when it was in production, would yield higher wear resistance, but honestly wasn't different enough from Vanax 35 in performance to justify the continued production according to Bohler. Vanax 35 will perform somewhat similar to M390, in much the same way that Vanax 75 would, but it will be easier to sharpen than M390 is, and it will have higher corrosion resistance (though honestly M390 resists corrosion well enough for almost anything already). It will be about the same in terms of toughness and most other properties though, which is why I love Vanax as much as I do. Really want to get my hands on a Shirogorov in Vanax, but have not as of yet. I do have a few smaller custom fixed blades in Vanax though, that all perform insanely well! Always looking for more examples of this steel to try.




In regards to this post, I would say that 3V is a better steel than INFI in almost all instances, but not for the reason that most people would think.
Chemically, and according to Busse's claims about the steel, INFI is likely a better steel overall than 3V. But you know what? You can't buy a Winkler folder in INFI, and you can buy one in 3V, and that really does mean something.

The proprietary nature of INFI is exactly what makes me dislike the steel in general. I don't like really any of the designs that Busse makes, and I certainly will not pay the price that they ask when I can get a full custom fixed blade in 3V that will perform almost if not as well for less. Busse does not make a folder, while there are innumerable makers and production companies that make folders of all varieties in 3V. Simply put, the knife that I actually receive in 3V has a much better chance of being exactly what I want than any knife I receive in INFI, and the fact that the steel might be better doesn't make that reality any less detrimental.

In short, I think the OP made 100% the right choice, finding a knife that was truly good for him in 3V, rather than getting a Busse that he might not like so that he could get INFI. Not to mention he wanted a folder, and Busse still does not make a folder, so if you want a folder in INFI, you better start looking at 3V steel with pretty serious consideration ;)
 
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You can find a PD1 3.75 inch El Patron in flipper or non flipper. I don't own any PD1 yet but my next folder will be a El Patron gen 3 flipper to go along with my gen 1 El Patron in 3v.
 

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hank_612 said:
You can find a PD1 3.75 inch El Patron in flipper or non flipper. I don't own any PD1 yet but my next folder will be a El Patron gen 3 flipper to go along with my gen 1 El Patron in 3v.
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PD-1 is an excellent tool steel in my opinion. Less toughness than 3V, but it is certainly tough enough for just about anything except extreme situations where 3V might be needed, and those situations will not realistically arise in the use of a folder anyway.
It also has higher wear resistance. It is essentially an upgraded version of D2, with higher wear reistance and toughness than D2, but similar properties in terms of corrosion resistance (so not bad), and similar attainable hardness, with a finer grain structure and more pure composition.
 
I love the Spyderco TUFF.
Spyderco TUFF 0.469" grip thickness blade thickness = 0.155" CPM-3V
I've had two; sold one. It was designed as a "folding Fixed Blade" and gives that impression. My second one can be opened with one hand...very smooth. It's a great knife and cheap at less than $200 as-new...as found often on the Exchange.
 
Back in the rec.knives days when Mark McWillis was VP at Benchmade I remember a post where, many broken folders later, he demonstrated that it made no difference what the blade properties were...the weakness of any folder is that the blade is attached to a pivot and folds.

Lots has happened since but I would suspect that this is still true today...for any reasonably robust folder the failure point will likely be at the pivot.

Mark
 
craytab said:
Spyderco Tuff comes to mind. It is in 3v. I think it was recently discontinued but is still available from some dealers. Don't know if the look will be right for you, some folks think it is ugly. I've always wanted one but never pulled the trigger.
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Cray, I am more or less in this spot. I have actually found a Tuff in stock on two different occasions and after holding it...there wasn't that something that said "You can't leave here without me. DO IT." So, I remain without one, even though I do like the look of them. I think that channel in the blade is visually interesting, and for what it's worth to those who are reading this and haven't held one, the Tuff is a very beefy knife. The scales are thick, and the knife has a weight to it. I think it would be a very capable hard use folder.

I'm sure I'll get around to picking one up eventually.
 
I know there are cool nuts here in the forum.
There ought to be at least one who took a fixed Infi and turned it into a folder.
 
Ya I also ordered the Boker solo in 3V. Haven't got it yet but I have tested the regular solo and i really liked the blade geometry.
 
AusLoX said:
I thought Busse made a folder? Did they ever release it?
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Only a couple of prototypes, that are not supposed to be shown in public. I have pics saved, but again, they are secret.

There are a handful of customs floating around made from chopped up bigger Busse.


They are sweet.

I had a broken BWMLE in two pieces I was planning on having made into folders, but then I spend the money on another custom.

In my used, in choppers, and small fixed blades INFI is tough, and very corrosion resistant in a satin finish.

for a folder, I'm not sure INFI is the best steel. It is super tough, and decent edge retention. It excels under impact, and torque, and I've had great results when accidental contact is made with rocks! But in a folder, I want more edge retention!

I like it more at a higher hardness, like in the BAD (for smaller blade). Where I did note an increase in edge retention. None of my testing is scientific. Just slicing stuff that needs cutting, and chopping stuff that needed chopping.


There is no production folder yet from them.
 
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Ok I'll have to wait then. It's not that I need a really tough folder, I just like collecting knives in different steels.
 
Could one take an existing INFI blade and grind a new tang in such a manner that it can be used in a folder?
 
asdf12345 said:
Could one take an existing INFI blade and grind a new tang in such a manner that it can be used in a folder?
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It's been done before...

1752682917_photobucket_99617_.jpg


Busse_BA3folder07.jpg


Here's a couple threads:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/966244-Custom-Shop-Folder

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/807078-My-Infi-Folders
 
Daniel Koster makes a bushcraft folder out of 1/8" 3v with a length 3.7" long (scandi ground). I've been very tempted to get one, but his order list seems to be closed for the rest of this year.:(
 
craytab said:
Spyderco Tuff comes to mind. It is in 3v. I think it was recently discontinued but is still available from some dealers. Don't know if the look will be right for you, some folks think it is ugly. I've always wanted one but never pulled the trigger.
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This TUFF is a great knife...and 3V is the steel of choice...for me. I have not owned a BUSSE, but know they are good, but have no INFI folders.
I've had two of the TUFF, and have kept the second one. This was designed as a folding "fixed blade" according to the designer.
 
Wasn't there a few companies licensed to use INFI for a short time? They didn't perform as well as Busse's due to his secret heat treat (fires of mount doom)
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Every company that produces knives commercially almost without exception keeps their heat treat proprietary. Even companies that contract out to vendors like Cold steel. :)

"secret", "special proprietary heat treat" are used as marketing slogans by companies. Some more so than others. Busse even takes regular steels and changes their names solely for marketing purposes and that has morphed into people thinking they make special steel. Sorry, Busse doesn't do anything really unique except make high quality knives that some how acquire an aura of invincibility by people who love to repeat each others slogans such as "for people who want to know what's inside of rocks" and other such nonsense that has nothing to do with the cutlery industry :) . .

I do like the way they do 52100 but I have had better. Infi? I'll take it for pushcutting purposes over 3V but I'll take 3V as a slicer any day. Lots of other steels too. Infi has about the performance of A8(mod) Chipper steel from Latrobe ( wink, wink.)

Their Quality control is very good from the knives that have come through my hands but the edges are way too thick for me. Their 52100 blades too. I don't like the coating, but that is just preference and not a knock against materials or performance.

I still get a kick out of the whole image and marketing Busse is into and the way their marketing plan is enhanced by and turned into over the top claims from not really knowledgeable customers.
 
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