Crazy these cost about the same

If you want to discuss economics:

One company has to use a wide variety of different hardware, lock types, and pivot types over multiple models of knives. The other company uses the same hardware, same locks, and same washer pivots on each knife.

One company has to use various thicknesses of titanium for their locksides, with a multitude of different finishes and 3D CNC designs. The other one uses the same thickness titanium on every knife, and does relatively little finish work on their locks.

One company uses several different blade steels which require different heat-treating specs. The other has been using the same blade steel on all of their knives for over a decade.

One company advertises. The other company prides itself on not having to advertise in years.

Yet comparable products by both companies generally cost about the same.

So, why do you think that may be? What's the important factor?

I'm aware of all of those things (although, again, no personal firsthand experience with Emerson). But it really only serves to validate my point. Is ZT not selling the model pictured above? Is Emerson not selling their model? We have a ton of interesting and not so interesting discussions on the whys and hows of the cost of knife A and knife B. But as amazed as we are, it's really the most simple thing in the world.

Do you believe Emerson (for example) would continue to use the exact same methods of production and tactics of advertising or lack thereof if what they were selling at the prices for which they were selling them didn't, in fact, sell? I'm confused as to why you are taking issue with what I said at all, if I'm honest. It was simple, yet true, statement, one that didn't take sides (which I objectively can't do, never having handled or used an Emerson knife).

Beyond receiving one as a gift, I doubt I'll ever own an Emerson. I feel they are overpriced. Having said that, I wouldn't own a ZT but for the fact that I did receive mine as gift. Having used the ZT, I don't feel it is overpriced, but it would have been over my budget, therefore I would never have purchased it. Apparently there are enough people in both markets that feel the knives are not only overpriced, but very likely underpriced for what you get (I feel this way about the ZT despite it being over my normal budget).

Would it be nice to see Emerson update their knives and maybe advertise a little? Sure. But Emerson isn't "at fault" for not doing that. And won't be, until people get tired of buying his knives, at which point change will be required. If what he makes is working for the market in which he makes it, the onus is on the customer to say "we want change." He has no real reason to innovate until such a time. I personally feel a good company should strive for innovation regardless of need, but I can also understand why he isn't. Sometimes you don't feel like fixing what ain't broke.
 
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To be fair, your point wasn't super clear since you offered literally no thoughts in your opening post. Now at post #18 we find that the "crazy" refers to we who would pay X amount of money for these knives. So I guess that clears that up.

To be fair, I created and open ended post. That adds another layer. We have the ability now to take it different directions. It is a forum that cycles the same threads over and over(nothing wrong with that either) from time to time I would think it would be interesting to see where things go.

Will we say we are nuts for what we spend on knives?
Will we compare materials?
Will we compare specs?
Will we compare companies?
Will we call the OP a troll?

It is in the end a useless thread that will not change who any of us are, or what we like

In the end we are all sharp thing enthusiast with differing tastes, and differing ways of posting
 
I'm aware of all of those things (although, again, no personal firsthand experience with Emerson). But it really only serves to validate my point. Is ZT not selling the model pictured above? Is Emerson not selling their model? We have a ton of interesting and not so interesting discussions on the whys and hows of the cost of knife A and knife B. But as amazed as we are, it's really the most simple thing in the world.

Do you believe Emerson (for example) would continue to use the exact same methods of production and tactics of advertising or lack thereof if what they were selling at the prices for which they were selling them didn't, in fact, sell? I'm confused as to why you are taking issue with what I said at all, if I'm honest. It was simple, yet true, statement, one that didn't take sides (which I objectively can't do, never having handled or used an Emerson knife).

So in your view, the reason they cost what they do has less to do with the manufacturing requirements and quality of the knives, and more to do with intentionally setting a price at a certain level?

And then, the answer to OPs question might be "One of the companies is likely more concerned with a higher profit margin than the other?"
 
To be fair, I created and open ended post. That adds another layer. We have the ability now to take it different directions. It is a forum that cycles the same threads over and over(nothing wrong with that either) from time to time I would think it would be interesting to see where things go.

Will we say we are nuts for what we spend on knives?
Will we compare materials?
Will we compare specs?
Will we compare companies?
Will we call the OP a troll?

It is in the end a useless thread that will not change who any of us are, or what we like

In the end we are all sharp thing enthusiast with differing tastes, and differing ways of posting

I agree with you in part, and as you can see it has taken on something of a life of its own. But people are wary of such threads and it's usually good etiquette to at least post your own thoughts on the topic you create, to get things started.

People don't usually have ideas along the lines of "I have absolutely no feelings about this at all but I'm wondering what other people feel about this."

Sharing your thoughts is great and won't in any way influence how others post, as we see here all the time. :)
 
So in your view, the reason they cost what they do has less to do with the manufacturing requirements and quality of the knives, and more to do with intentionally setting a price at a certain level?

And then, the answer to OPs question might be "One of the companies is likely more concerned with a higher profit margin than the other?"

Correct, on both counts, yes.

Edit: Do I think one company puts more time, effort, cost and requirements into their knives than the other, and is more concerned about quality than the profit margin (to a degree)? Yes.

Does that seem to matter in the economic sense of this market, given how both products sell? Not really.
 
Okay my thoughts in no particular order of relevance or importance.

I've handled the best and worst from both companies.

Both companies have loyal followers, and some people are loyal to both brands

I've heard material arguments, and fit and finish arguments regarding comparison threads of these two makers before.

I think both companies have a fairly similar target market within the knife community

I don't mind dropping Emerson's from heights onto concrete, because they already look used and unfinished

154 is EASY to sharpen

I can take either knife apart easily. In the end I think the non torx screw line from Emerson is hype. Sure there was a time torx bits were rarer than small slots/phillips but that day is gone. I think torn would actually hold up better from repeated disassembling

I think liner locks are plenty strong when not abusing a knife, but I also think the line about the stickiness of Emerson locks is due to them being tactical, and you don't want them to disengage in a fight is pretty high on the BS meter.

ZT's are overbuilt but I ain't complaining MOST carry lighter than they are

I like offerings from both companies, and I loathe offerings from both companies.

I would not call myself a fanboy of either.

I use specific knives for specific purposes. My EDC carry is because I like it and it cuts oddball stuff throughout the day. I use kitchen knives for food prep. I use a box cutter for "processing" cardboard yada yada yada
 
None of that explains why you think it's crazy that they both cost the same.

You may want to edit your OP with your explanation as to why it's crazy that they cost the same.
IMO, you need to do that in place of the "and discuss" command.
Folks will be more willing to give their opinion that way.
 
This is what gets me.. the consumers by the lower grade product at premium prices... don't blame the dude raking in the cash lol maybe i should take note and apply his business technique to a product and sell it. I think emerson is overpriced as well, but fact is people pay what ever emerson asks and he gives them the same ol same and their happy with it.. really quite odd.

Where it gets interesting is when he collaborates with another company and they produce his design with better materials and more labor at a cheaper price... it exposes his greed or want for a large profit margin as its called.. he called attention to his prices of his in house made knives in a negative way in my opinion by allowing zt to produce a product that costs more in every way..at a cheaper price than his knives.

Correct, on both counts, yes.

Edit: Do I think one company puts more time, effort, cost and requirements into their knives than the other, and is more concerned about quality than the profit margin (to a degree)? Yes.

Does that seem to matter in the economic sense of this market, given how both products sell? Not really.
 
This is what gets me.. the consumers by the lower grade product at premium prices... don't blame the dude raking in the cash lol maybe i should take note and apply his business technique to a product and sell it. I think emerson is overpriced as well, but fact is people pay what ever emerson asks and he gives them the same ol same and their happy with it.. really quite odd.

Where it gets interesting is when he collaborates with another company and they produce his design with better materials and more labor at a cheaper price... it exposes his greed or want for a large profit margin as its called.. he called attention to his prices of his in house made knives in a negative way in my opinion by allowing zt to produce a product that costs more in every way..at a cheaper price than his knives.


Great perspective
 
Where it gets interesting is when he collaborates with another company and they produce his design with better materials and more labor at a cheaper price... it exposes his greed or want for a large profit margin as its called.. he called attention to his prices of his in house made knives in a negative way in my opinion by allowing zt to produce a product that costs more in every way..at a cheaper price than his knives.

^Very true.
 
None of that explains why you think it's crazy that they both cost the same.

You may want to edit your OP with your explanation as to why it's crazy that they cost the same.
IMO, you need to do that in place of the "and discuss" command.
Folks will be more willing to give their opinion that way.

And you are entitled to your opinion. One of the many great things about Murica and Al Gore's Interweb
 
As a person who occasionally enjoys buying stuff and things, I'll offer my expert opinion: ZT Rules! Ernie Emerson got the crap kicked out of him by Elijah Wood!

Two years from now, the ZT 0666 Limited Custom Factory One-Off will have a built-in iphone9 and transform into a mil-spec spy drone that can fire BB's made from depleted Uranium; Emerson, on the other hand, will be putting the finishing touches on a top-secret prototype known only by the mysterious acronym 'CQC'... it has black G-10 handles and a chisel-ground tanto blade of... :eek:... CPM 154. :p;)

Emerson's name and reputation go a long way, and sometimes that even off-sets the upgrade in materials. I'd probably buy the 0620CF before the 'real' Emerson production models, but they're still proven and reliable knives. A custom Emerson is a whole different matter; I'd love to get one someday in the near future.:thumbup:
 
None of that explains why you think it's crazy that they both cost the same.

You may want to edit your OP with your explanation as to why it's crazy that they cost the same.
IMO, you need to do that in place of the "and discuss" command.
Folks will be more willing to give their opinion that way.

And you are entitled to your opinion. One of the many great things about Murica and Al Gore's Interweb

Does this mean you won't be telling us why you think it's crazy that both cost the same ?

Can you please simply tell us why you think it's crazy that both cost the same ?

If you say it's crazy you must have a reason as to why.
 
And discuss...........

WMNVBvX.jpg

They look about the same to me. Why shouldn't they cost the same?

That's how I imagine an average person would respond to your post anyway. As a knife enthusiast, I would say that the top knife should cost significantly more; the lower knife has plastic handles and doesn't even have a brand name. ;)
 
Adventures in missing the point here......

The actual "crazy" part of it all is us

Wow, so deep... Not.

OK ill play a little.

Not to be pretending im rich or anything but price on a production Knife is not my first concern. Maybe 9th before lock strength (10) and centering (11).
Just guessing at these numbers here for illustration purposes. But ill take the frame lock and V grind first any day of the week.
 
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Adventures in missing the point here......

It is not a whose knife is better thread

In the end we could price all knives at fifty bucks

At that price not everyone would end up with top end knives. In the end we buy what we like.

The actual "crazy" part of it all is us

A couple considerations...

Why crazy?

Why the open ended thoughts which seem to be conclusive in nature and a bit narcistic?
 
Quote Originally Posted by bobnery View Post
Adventures in missing the point here......

The actual "crazy" part of it all is us

------------------------------------

After reading thirty-six posts, this is all we end up with?
Good grief!
lol
 
I have owned both and I like the ZT's better. To me the fit and finish is better and the materials used justify the cost. Mr. Emerson has a loyal following but, that in itself won't carry him thru to the finish will it?
 
Quote Originally Posted by bobnery View Post
Adventures in missing the point here......

The actual "crazy" part of it all is us

------------------------------------

After reading thirty-six posts, this is all we end up with?
Good grief!
lol

What do you mean?! That post changed my life! ;) It's a lot of reading for one tiny speck of 'wisdom'. :rolleyes:
 
Both Emerson and ZT seem over-priced when viewed one-on-one. Emersons are crazy-tough knives and ZT's are no doubt fancier in appearance.

Back off for the bigger picture, however: two Emersons for the price of one Sebenza. Suddenly those Emersons are very reasonably priced.
 
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