Crazy these cost about the same

ATwistedStaple said:
Well, and I may be entirely off base, but I'd bet that a lot less of the production process is automated on the Emerson and that his employees make a bit more than ZTs.
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That would be an interesting thing to learn about ALL knife makers. What machines are they using to do what with, and what are their limitations.

Oh and interesting tidbit on that ZT, I think it is against forum rules to promote dealers here with links but a USA named company anodizes some of their knives, and has zero mark up after. That ZT cost the same as a standard 620CF...... Definitely will be buying other knives from him in the future
 
bobnery said:
That would be an interesting thing to learn about ALL knife makers. What machines are they using to do what with, and what are their limitations.

Oh and interesting tidbit on that ZT, I think it is against forum rules to promote dealers here with links but a USA named company anodizes some of their knives, and has zero mark up after. That ZT cost the same as a standard 620CF...... Definitely will be buying other knives from him in the future
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If the dealer has a dealer membership here I pretty sure you can link to them. And if you're referencing USA Made Blade, I'm sure he has the right membership level.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
If the dealer has a dealer membership here I pretty sure you can link to them. And if you're referencing USA Made Blade, I'm sure he has the right membership level.
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That's him. Great that he offers that on some knives. Cool scales offered too, and located in the South
 
ZT is better able to capitalize on economies of scale, so it's no surprise they can produce a product of equal caliber at lower cost per unit when they're making that many units.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
ZT is better able to capitalize on economies of scale, so it's no surprise they can produce a product of equal caliber at lower cost per unit when they're making that many units.
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Definitely true. You have to give credit though to Emerson for being competitive, and able to charge a premium for their product.

It is like an earlier post said, a few years from now ZT will have a knife with an iphone9 embedded in the scale, and Emerson will still be making the same knife, but yet he stays competitive. You can speculate it is great customer service, but I think it is more so a wonderful marketing of the brand.
 
ATwistedStaple said:
Well, and I may be entirely off base, but I'd bet that a lot less of the production process is automated on the Emerson and that his employees make a bit more than ZTs.
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What's the reasoning behind this?

Moreover, what's the reasoning behind less automation = higher cost?

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, I just want to know why you believe it is so.
 
Knives made by CNC require a lot of skill and a lot of effort. John Grimsmo does almost everything on the 'Norseman', and now the upcoming 'Rask'... along with his brother, of course. They've done hundreds of 'Knifemaking Tuesday' (?) YT videos (partly as promotion for the Tormach machines they use, helping pay off the huge price-tag), which are pretty instructive about the CNC process on a small scale, and what it takes to be a success in the business. GASP!! Hard work?! Design CAD?! 100 000$ equipment?! Screw that... ;) Learning the old school methods are just as hard, and in many ways harder. There's a lot of skills that using a CNC lets you detour around, but that can take years to truly master.
 
You know what's really crazy?



Some guy throws some oil and tint on a canvas and people will literally pay hundreds of dollars for it. I got my whole house painted last year for less than that thing cost. It took gallons of high quality paint, while this thing can't even sit outside for a month without being ruined. Some people fall for the marketing instead of realizing that you have to base what you're willing to pay on materials, not some fancy name. I found out that the place that owns this painting doesn't even use it. It's a total safe queen. They just hang it on a wall and stare at it. Posers. I know which paint job is better because I use all of my painted objects in real world hard usage situations. /sarcasm

The fact of the matter is that there are many factors that determine what an object is worth. Materials used, craftsmanship, durability, etc. However, the number one factor in determining what an object is worth to somebody is how much they like it. Change the materials and you can increase the price by 10%, 20%, heck even 1000%, but if you can make the right people like that object you can put whatever price tag you want on it and somebody will buy it. It doesn't have to make sense to anybody but the guy pulling out his checkbook. If you don't like an object enough to pay the asking price the common sense thing is to just move along. It makes no sense to go to an art gallery and complain about how much they're charging for paintings made with oil paints and natural bristle brushes. Why would it make any more sense to go to a knife forum and complain about how much people charge for knives based on what materials they use or what methods they use to manufacture said knives? In both cases people are lining up to pay the asking price, so obviously they're worth it to some people.
 
Cory Hess said:
You know what's really crazy?



Some guy throws some oil and tint on a canvas and people will literally pay hundreds of dollars for it. I got my whole house painted last year for less than that thing cost. It took gallons of high quality paint, while this thing can't even sit outside for a month without being ruined. Some people fall for the marketing instead of realizing that you have to base what you're willing to pay on materials, not some fancy name. I found out that the place that owns this painting doesn't even use it. It's a total safe queen. They just hang it on a wall and stare at it. Posers. I know which paint job is better because I use all of my painted objects in real world hard usage situations. /sarcasm

The fact of the matter is that there are many factors that determine what an object is worth. Materials used, craftsmanship, durability, etc. However, the number one factor in determining what an object is worth to somebody is how much they like it. Change the materials and you can increase the price by 10%, 20%, heck even 1000%, but if you can make the right people like that object you can put whatever price tag you want on it and somebody will buy it. It doesn't have to make sense to anybody but the guy pulling out his checkbook. If you don't like an object enough to pay the asking price the common sense thing is to just move along. It makes no sense to go to an art gallery and complain about how much they're charging for paintings made with oil paints and natural bristle brushes. Why would it make any more sense to go to a knife forum and complain about how much people charge for knives based on what materials they use or what methods they use to manufacture said knives? In both cases people are lining up to pay the asking price, so obviously they're worth it to some people.
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Preach!
 
asdf12345 said:
What's the reasoning behind this?

Moreover, what's the reasoning behind less automation = higher cost?

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, I just want to know why you believe it is so.
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The whole point of automation is to reduce unit cost. The equipment is more expensive, but represents a fixed cost that's amortized over the total volume produced. This only makes sense economically when producing in high volume, as compared to a greater degree of hand-operated process on more general-application equipment, which costs more in labor hours and laborer skill but allows for greater flexibility in manufacturing. Low volume production is based around flexibility and being able to rapidly change your products or produce a large range of products with fewer tooling requirements, while high volume production is based around manufacturing efficiency and minimizing labor hours, but is less able to make rapid changes in product without also investing in new tooling.
 
asdf12345 said:
What's the reasoning behind this?

Moreover, what's the reasoning behind less automation = higher cost?

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing, I just want to know why you believe it is so.
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In this case it's size of operation. Emerson, again this is just a guess, probably has far fewer employees. As such they'll have to have more skill on average than ZT employees. More skill equals more pay. So the guy who's walking a batch of blades from one place to another or taking inventory for a certain area is also a very talented smith or machinist, whereas at ZT small labor jobs are likely done by an intern or someone making at most a bit over minimum wage.

This is just a theory mind you. Emerson may very well only employ nieces and nephews who don't make squat while charging us a fortune. They're great knives regardless.
 
This thread has actually been pretty productive for what it's worth, and a lot of great posts have been made. The main takeaway for me is that value is subjective.

For example, those Kershaw-Emerson collabs sell for $30 and aesthetically and functionally (to an extent) are very, very similar to the real Emersons and ZTs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're better knives. They're in an entirely different class, made in china with low end 8cr13mov and steel in place of titanium for the lock.

Most people would be super happy with that knife and would see no reason to buy a real emerson. But us knife people spend hundreds of dollars extra for higher end materials and workmanship, and that's awesome. But if we're doing that, do we really have the right to critique one high-end brand versus another over price when we could get something FUNCTIONALLY virtually identical for $170?

Oh lol that's a monster post, sorry guys. Just my $0.02
 
jr27 said:
This thread has actually been pretty productive for what it's worth, and a lot of great posts have been made. The main takeaway for me is that value is subjective.

For example, those Kershaw-Emerson collabs sell for $30 and aesthetically and functionally (to an extent) are very, very similar to the real Emersons and ZTs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they're better knives. They're in an entirely different class, made in china with low end 8cr13mov and steel in place of titanium for the lock.

Most people would be super happy with that knife and would see no reason to buy a real emerson. But us knife people spend hundreds of dollars extra for higher end materials and workmanship, and that's awesome. But if we're doing that, do we really have the right to critique one high-end brand versus another over price when we could get something FUNCTIONALLY virtually identical for $170?

Oh lol that's a monster post, sorry guys. Just my $0.02
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You bring up some good points.

I think one reason myself and a few others are frowned upon at times is that we are critical.

I'm highly supportive of some knife dealers that I have had great service from, and have gone above and beyond.

When it comes to makers though I am extremely anti fanboy. Too many guys think they are best chums with makers because they reply to a post that a maker starts, or the maker shakes their hand at SHOT. They are in business to make money. Dealers are too granted, but they are a middle man, and I don't hold them responsible for "lemons" or for hyping problems as features, and so on. I'm in the business of giving perfect service to DoD and DoS, me letting a lemon go can cost a life, so I know the importance of quality product.

There are a couple knife companies that I have gone back and forth on due to quality, the owner being a fraud, bad customer service, etc.At the end of the day though my choice to go back was appeal of a certain knife/knives or a quality they have.

I've realized I don't avoid a company because the owner lies or is a fraud. I don't avoid a company because the BF rep is a nut sack. I don't avoid a company because a maker has stolen money. I don't avoid a company because they don't evolve.

I simply buy what I like, and if I change my mind I'm allowed to do that.

My family, friends, and country get my loyalty, everyone else needs to earn it
 
Well, this has been quite the interesting thread, Bob, and has elicited some interesting responses--both on- and way off-point. I very much agree with your comments above and they serve to bring the discussion full-circle. They would make a very fitting end to this thread except that I've just spoiled that….

Anyone is entitled to offer whatever they want to whoever wants to buy it. (Edit: ...and anyone can pay as much as they wish for whatever they like and pass on the rest.) That's what a free market is all about.
 
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I'm an owner of many of these knives being mentioned here (ZT's, Emersons and CRK's). I personally wouldn't pay Emerson-level pricing for a ZT, I just don't get the enjoyment factor out of ZT ownership that I do with Emersons. That is not a comment directed at the intrinsic value of the two knives, but for me an Emerson brings me considerably more joy than a ZT, which in a nutshell is why I am a knife zealot.
 
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