Creationish Vs Evolutionism? BE POLITE!

What do you believe? (private)

  • Biblical Creationism (please explain)

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  • Christian Evolution (please explain)

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  • Non Christian Creation (please explain)

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  • Non Christian Evolution (please explain)

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  • Non Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian Science (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • inexplicable (creation cannot be explained through current science or religion))

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other. Please explain in your post! :)

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So first off I'm a christian and your right God does not need our money, But other people could benefit from charitable giving and assuming a church is responsible with what is given people could be helped. Also tithing and giving (which I understand to be above and beyond the asked 10% according to "The Law") are a sign of faith that you trust God will provide for you. About God and worship: Your right he does not need our worship however he loves us and because he is a good God he is worthy of worship and personally I take Joy is worshipping God because he is good and gracious and loving. In regards to your last setence that the data supports evolutionary theory I would like to see specifically what "data" you are refering to.
 
Your right he does not need our worship however he loves us and because he is a good God he is worthy of worship and personally I take Joy is worshipping God because he is good and gracious and loving.

I'm glad for you, and happy that you find joy in your worship. The world needs more joy.


In regards to your last setence that the data supports evolutionary theory I would like to see specifically what "data" you are refering to.

A good starting point which gives many citations to additional resources (and data sources) and avenues of research is the Wiki page on Common Descent/Modern Evolutionary Synthesis.

It provides some nice overview to the different types of evidences, then provides some specific examples demonstrating them. Well worth a read through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent


The Evolution pages Berkley hosts are very good to, with many resources in the library including peer reviewed journal articles, data sets, and extensive coursework and explanation.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php

In regards to source data, you need to be more specific about what kind of data you want. Do you want genetic data and comparative studies? Micro-biology and generational experimentation data? Observational data? Geologic data. Etc. Data of one type or another supports each conclusion and evidence point in the above two links... so keep reading. :)
 
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generally, when a creationist says they see no proof, nothing short of video camera footage of primordial ooze evolving into modern humans will sway them.

"Your wacky theory of gravity has no solid proof, sure I've seen thousands of things fall straight down my entire life. but I've been going to a big building full of people who say things fall sideways since I was a kid. I'm inclined to believe them, because they're really nice people."
 
Religion of some sort is a human universal. Anything that widespread must have its roots deep in our evolutionary history. We can certainly see signs of religion as part of the shift that lead to behaviorally modern humans. Anything that has persisted that long, and that broadly, must serve some human purpose. If religion were really a spandrel, all pain and no gain, it would have been selected against over the millennia.
Replace "religion" with "violence," and you'll see how ridiculous this is. Religion is social, not biological.

It is the power of science and technology that has allowed humanity to commit mass murder in unprecedented numbers. Science and technology taught us to eradicate a city in an eye blink. Science and technology gave us the ability to wreck our biosphere. It isn’t religion that has brought humanity to the brink of catastrophe.
Idealization and devaluation. (Did you do that on purpose? I can't tell... but if so, it's pretty clever!)
 
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Replace "religion" with "violence," and you'll see how ridiculous this is. Religion is social, not biological.

Language is social, not biological. Except that we have specialized brain regions for dealing with language. Is it so hard to imagine that the shape of the human brain affects the shape of human behavior?

Idealization and devaluation. (Did you do that on purpose? I can't tell... but if so, it's pretty clever!)

I was deliberately reacting to extreme New Atheist propaganda.

My first post in this thread mentioned the church burning Gordano Bruno at the stake. I’m not giving unreserved praise to either position.
 
We have a small amount of dna from breeding with neandrathals. We are great apes. The reason for lack of fossils has been known for a long time. When life started, ad for a really long time after, it was basic. No protective covering, no bones. So no impressions in stone. By the time simple life got complex it had seperated into distinct groups. I would like creationists to explain neandrathal dna.
 
It is the power of science and technology that has allowed humanity to commit mass murder in unprecedented numbers. Science and technology taught us to eradicate a city in an eye blink. Science and technology gave us the ability to wreck our biosphere. It isn’t religion that has brought humanity to the brink of catastrophe.

Religion didn't give us the smallpox vaccine. Religion didn't put men on the moon. Religion didn't find a way to cure bacterial infections. Religion didn't give us clean water or sewage removal. I could go on and on, but the fact is people have done some pretty awful things in the name of religion, and people have done some pretty awful things with new technologies and in the name of scientific advancement, and sometimes people have done some pretty awful things with both at the same time. So what? This argument is silly, the entire argument, on both sides. Evolution has nothing to do with religion, at all, not even a little. Accepting evolution does not mean you're an atheist, or that you hate god, or that you're going to hell, or that you're going to go killing everything in the name of science. All this means is that you can objectively look at factual evidence and accept the explanation for that evidence. It is no different than dropping a rock and knowing that that rock fell because of this invisible force called gravity. Even if you don't understand the physics behind why the rock fell, you can accept that gravity exists, the same is true of evolution. This has nothing to do with your faith. Faith cannot be quantified or measured, proved or disproved, and it doesn't need to be, and it does not need to conflict with your judgement of scientific evidence.
 
Religion of some sort is a human universal. Anything that widespread must have its roots deep in our evolutionary history. We can certainly see signs of religion as part of the shift that lead to behaviorally modern humans. Anything that has persisted that long, and that broadly, must serve some human purpose. If religion were really a spandrel, all pain and no gain, it would have been selected against over the millennia.

There’s an old saying about babies and bathwater. The new crop of scientific atheists see nothing but the bad of religion. They see nothing but the good of science. Shrinks call this kind of thinking idealization and devaluation. They try and help its practitioners to think more realistically.

It is the power of science and technology that has allowed humanity to commit mass murder in unprecedented numbers. Science and technology taught us to eradicate a city in an eye blink. Science and technology gave us the ability to wreck our biosphere. It isn’t religion that has brought humanity to the brink of catastrophe.

There’s another old saying about eyes and motes and beams.

There is something in our social makeup that is associated with belief in the spiritual, even Neanderthals displayed ritualistic intent at some of their burial sites. Most likely (I think) that we all die, we can all see others die and know its coming. At its essence all religions are attempts to reconcile our limited life on this planet and give us a continuing (and frequently conditional) narrative. Creation stories are a necessary additive - how can a God give us peace after we die if that God weren't responsible for our being here in the first place? Humans have a powerful urge to hedge our survival plan against a projected future. Being able to accurately predict and influence that future beyond the next season is a hallmark of our species, and as such we are constantly trying to explain our world in a way that is useful and potentially beneficial. Even at our current stage of development there is plenty of uncertainty and death is still the final destination for us as individuals. Its small wonder religion is still useful to so many, and once embraced there is a strong urge to defend it. Still it IS amazing we're even having this conversation. To believe in the natural record of existence on this planet we need only have the tiniest confidence in the peer-reviewed and virtually unanimous conclusion reached by well instructed people from many disciplines all agreeing on the same basic premise. Or we can choose to have unwavering confidence in something that is not only unprovable but untestable as well, and is actually at odds with what we can discern by studying reality...


It is the power of science and technology that has allowed humanity to commit mass murder in unprecedented numbers. Science and technology taught us to eradicate a city in an eye blink. Science and technology gave us the ability to wreck our biosphere. It isn’t religion that has brought humanity to the brink of catastrophe.

This is true, most of scientific progress as applied to our daily lives is a result of greed. Religion did not bring us to the brink, but it may well be a strong factor in pushing us over the edge.
 
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Name some examples.

Is the Muslim world, imams hold sway over the people who follow them. In Latin America, the Catholic Church is king. In North America, we have a plethora of churches, most of them being Christian's following some brand of lutherism. Have you ever seen a "mega-church"? In Europe, a fast rising secular movement is in place but then there's east Europe where the Catholic Church has strong roots in Poland and the east Orthodox Church dominates most of east Europe and Russia but for the minorities that are Muslim. In India, Hinduism keeps people in a caste system to this day. Asia happens to be a little less, Buddhism nominally the leading religion. However, cult of personalities were built up around leaders of the communist party of china and North Korea to simulate religion. They are fading now, but they did help to achieve the dominance of those political parties.

My point is, all over the world, people pay attention to religious authorizes (and give them money!). The Vatican might not have a nuke, but they are a power in the world. Same goes for the churches in the us. They use their wealth to purchase political capital. What they do with it is not always in the greater good.
 
Is the Muslim world, imams hold sway over the people who follow them. In Latin America, the Catholic Church is king. In North America, we have a plethora of churches, most of them being Christian's following some brand of lutherism. Have you ever seen a "mega-church"? In Europe, a fast rising secular movement is in place but then there's east Europe where the Catholic Church has strong roots in Poland and the east Orthodox Church dominates most of east Europe and Russia but for the minorities that are Muslim. In India, Hinduism keeps people in a caste system to this day. Asia happens to be a little less, Buddhism nominally the leading religion. However, cult of personalities were built up around leaders of the communist party of china and North Korea to simulate religion. They are fading now, but they did help to achieve the dominance of those political parties.

My point is, all over the world, people pay attention to religious authorizes (and give them money!). The Vatican might not have a nuke, but they are a power in the world. Same goes for the churches in the us. They use their wealth to purchase political capital. What they do with it is not always in the greater good.


Not to mention the influence the Israeli/Zionist lobby has in our own govt. Plus the growing influence of religious right groups on legislation and education. How else are we even having a discussion about Creationism?
 
Maybe it would be more valuable to get back to the more specific conversation about creationism vs. scientific method and their individual strengths. Let's look at it from a different perspective. I see it as two mindsets, one leaning towards belief/faith based conclusion and the other leaning towards conclusions drawn through critical thinking and evaluation. If these two ways of thinking are applied in other areas of our lives, say to the relationship we have with our spouses, how does that pan out? So do you trust your spouse because you have faith in him/her, or do you trust your spouse because he/she consistently shows characteristics and behavior that align with your criteria for trustworthy?
 
Despite the fact that I'm an atheist and have been so for 40+ years... I acknowledge that if religion did not serve some function it would not exist any longer.
As noted, we (humans, that is) seem to have certain traits that lead us to think in these directions. If we go back to our primitive ancestors, this is entirely understandable.
Those folks that started making bone flutes and making those lovely cave paintings 40+ thousands of years ago... They were us. Homo Sapiens Sapiens.. Modern man.
The same capabilities of intelligence, contemplation, etc.
Imagine what a strange world they lived in. The Sun and Moon moved across the sky, the stars whirled around... Occasionally bolts of fire would strike from the sky, accompanied by loud noises....
Sometimes the earth itself would shake, or break open and throw melted rocks into the air...
What caused all these things? What was going on?

Well, no wonder that most all primitive cultures on the face of the Earth came up with the idea of invisible "spirits" that did these things. Animism. Animating spirits.
Only a short logical jump to "well, if there are spirits that make the Earth move and the Sun fly... Maybe I have one too."
The idea of a "soul" is born. The idea that it survives death only another slight jump, and one that fulfills wishes. Like, "I wish I wouldn't die."
Now, our ancestors are still will us, in some form. Again, most primitives have some form of ancestor worship.. Or at least veneration.
Religion takes off from there. Shamans arise and become the mouthpiece for the spirits. They can communicate with them and know the secrets and rituals needed to keep them happy....
Eventually, we go from drug-whacked shamans to a whole class of "priests"... Intercessories for the spirits at first, and then eventually the Gods... For Gods are just spirits writ large.
 
*snip*

This argument is silly, the entire argument, on both sides. Evolution has nothing to do with religion, at all, not even a little. Accepting evolution does not mean you're an atheist
*snip*
It is no different than dropping a rock and knowing that that rock fell because of this invisible force called gravity. Even if you don't understand the physics behind why the rock fell, you can accept that gravity exists, the same is true of evolution. This has nothing to do with your faith. Faith cannot be quantified or measured, proved or disproved, and it doesn't need to be, and it does not need to conflict with your judgement of scientific evidence.

Worth repeating. Especially that first bit about evolution not having anything to do with religion. Snipped for brevity
 
As I understand them, strict 'scientific' explanations of macro evolution and strict interpretations of biblical creation fall short of explaining how we got here. I believe that the human organism cannot have simply evolved from much lower forms. There is too much complexity and specialization of structures and cells in people and most animals. I can easily go along with variations in skin/hair/feather colors, some physical structures and behaviors as a function of natural selection. But Darwinian natural selection is clearly not at work in humans today. The human species is not reaching higher heights intellectually or physically, not adapting to a changing environment, and human society appears to be devolving (if anything), not evolving. As for the rest of nature (I've always argued that humans are part of nature, we just build better ant hills), most of the animal species that are becoming extinct are doing so because they cannot adapt to a changing environment. It would seem to me that evolution is failing pretty spectacularly, thus a faulty explanation to completely explain the development of life on earth.

In the same way, strict dogmatic interpretation of Genesis (or any other Biblical text) doesn't work either, because it's an account from a single perspective (the narrative of God). It doesn't attempt to explain the details, and the original audience could care less. The point behind the creation narrative isn't to explain the nature of all life on earth, but the relationship of people to their creator, and the intended relationship of people with their world. I've seen plenty of secular people lampoon the Christian belief in creation, but most of them miss the point (understandably). I was once easily drawn into the Darwin vs. Jesus argument, but now I think it's all spurious.

I chalk up the strictest interpretations on either side of this debate to a form of religion. I do mean this to say that (I think) strict evolutionists are practicing a form of religion even if it's couched in 'science'. I suspect it takes just as much 'belief' to fill in the gaps either way you come down on this, because we simply don't have enough real information to connect all the dots. Scientists are human and invest themselves in their beliefs as much as priests and ministers. It's pretty easy to find and interpret data that supports your claims. It's been my experience that many of these debates end with people crossing their arms and thinking the other party arrogant or ignorant. I would argue that this is true, for those most dogmatic parties, no matter which side they're advocating.

These are my observations, given what I've seen in life so far. Your mileage will almost certainly vary and I respect your right to have an opinion, even if I don't agree with it. I'm a practicing Christian (not always good at it), but as you might have gathered I don't follow the strictest, most dogmatic interpretations of scripture, particularly in this regard.

SP
 
As I understand them, strict 'scientific' explanations of macro evolution and strict interpretations of biblical creation fall short of explaining how we got here. I believe that the human organism cannot have simply evolved from much lower forms. There is too much complexity and specialization of structures and cells in people and most animals. I can easily go along with variations in skin/hair/feather colors, some physical structures and behaviors as a function of natural selection. But Darwinian natural selection is clearly not at work in humans today. The human species is not reaching higher heights intellectually or physically, not adapting to a changing environment, and human society appears to be devolving (if anything), not evolving. As for the rest of nature (I've always argued that humans are part of nature, we just build better ant hills), most of the animal species that are becoming extinct are doing so because they cannot adapt to a changing environment. It would seem to me that evolution is failing pretty spectacularly, thus a faulty explanation to completely explain the development of life on earth.

In the same way, strict dogmatic interpretation of Genesis (or any other Biblical text) doesn't work either, because it's an account from a single perspective (the narrative of God). It doesn't attempt to explain the details, and the original audience could care less. The point behind the creation narrative isn't to explain the nature of all life on earth, but the relationship of people to their creator, and the intended relationship of people with their world. I've seen plenty of secular people lampoon the Christian belief in creation, but most of them miss the point (understandably). I was once easily drawn into the Darwin vs. Jesus argument, but now I think it's all spurious.

I chalk up the strictest interpretations on either side of this debate to a form of religion. I do mean this to say that (I think) strict evolutionists are practicing a form of religion even if it's couched in 'science'. I suspect it takes just as much 'belief' to fill in the gaps either way you come down on this, because we simply don't have enough real information to connect all the dots. Scientists are human and invest themselves in their beliefs as much as priests and ministers. It's pretty easy to find and interpret data that supports your claims. It's been my experience that many of these debates end with people crossing their arms and thinking the other party arrogant or ignorant. I would argue that this is true, for those most dogmatic parties, no matter which side they're advocating.

These are my observations, given what I've seen in life so far. Your mileage will almost certainly vary and I respect your right to have an opinion, even if I don't agree with it. I'm a practicing Christian (not always good at it), but as you might have gathered I don't follow the strictest, most dogmatic interpretations of scripture, particularly in this regard.

SP
taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroevolution
The term "macroevolution" frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They accept that evolutionary change is possible within what they call "kinds" ("microevolution"), but deny that one "kind" can evolve into another ("macroevolution"). [13] Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level ("macroevolution", i.e. speciation in a specific case) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.[14] In creation science, creationists accepted speciation as occurring within a "created kind" or "baramin", but objected to what they called "third level-macroevolution" of a new genus or higher rank in taxonomy. Generally, there is ambiguity as to where they draw a line on "species", "created kinds", etc. and what events and lineages fall within the rubric of microevolution or macroevolution.[15] The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community.

Such claims are rejected by the scientific community on the basis of ample evidence that macroevolution is an active process both presently and in the past.[6][16] The terms macroevolution and microevolution relate to the same processes operating at different scales, but creationist claims misuse the terms in a vaguely defined way which does not accurately reflect scientific usage, acknowledging well observed evolution as "microevolution" and denying that "macroevolution" takes place.[6][17] Evolutionary theory (including macroevolutionary change) remains the dominant scientific paradigm for explaining the origins of Earth's biodiversity. Its occurrence is not disputed within the scientific community.[18] While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data. Predictions of empirical data from the theory of common descent have been so consistent that biologists often refer to it as the "fact of evolution".[19][20]

Describing the fundamental similarity between Macro and Microevolution in his authoritative textbook "Evolutionary Biology," biologist Douglas Futuyma writes,
“ One of the most important tenets of the theory forged during the Evolutionary Synthesis of the 1930s and 1940s was that "macroevolutionary" differences among organisms - those that distinguish higher taxa - arise from the accumulation of the same kinds of genetic differences that are found within species. Opponents of this point of view believed that "macroevolution" is qualitatively different from "microevolution" within species, and is based on a totally different kind of genetic and developmental patterning... Genetic studies of species differences have decisively disproved [this] claim. Differences between species in morphology, behavior, and the processes that underlie reproductive isolation all have the same genetic properties as variation within species: they occupy consistent chromosomal positions, they may be polygenic or based on few genes, they may display additive, dominant, or epistatic effects, and they can in some instances be traved to specifiable differences in proteins or DNA nucleotide sequences. The degree of reproductive isolation between populations, whether prezygotic or postzygotic, varies from little or none to complete. Thus, reproductive isolation, like the divergence of any other character, evolves in most cases by the gradual substitution of alleles in populations. ”

— Douglas Futuyma, "Evolutionary Biology" (1998), pp.477-8[4]

Nicholas Matzke and Paul R. Gross have accused creationists of using "strategically elastic" definitions of micro- and macroevolution when discussing the topic.[1] The actual definition of macroevolution accepted by scientists is "any change at the species level or above" (phyla, group, etc.) and microevolution is "any change below the level of species." Matzke and Gross state that many creationist critics define macroevolution as something that cannot be attained, as these critics dismiss any observed evolutionary change as "just microevolution".[1]
See also
 
[video=youtube;FH0vQiudp6I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH0vQiudp6I[/video]

More educational then the title implies.
 

Snipping the rest for brevity sake...

This is not meant as an insult in any regard, but an observation on the nature of serious debate (which, entertainingly enough, I'm not trying to engage in at this point).

But...

The least scientifically convincing thing I could imagine reading would be an article posted on Wikipedia. I believe most academics (I'm not claiming to be one, but I've worked with more than a few, personally) would find a Wikipedia reference on any subject amusing, at best. I'm also not certain what the point of your post (as a response to mine) is intended to say, other than to point out the difference in the terms Micro and Macro and to illustrate that there is yet one more person who knows how to spell big words, that thinks evolution is the answer. What are you getting at?

I'm not expecting this discussion (as a whole) to change anyone's mind, mostly because the subject is a matter of belief. I'm not even arguing that some facets of evolution are wrong. But evolution as the sole explanation for the state of life on the earth doesn't add up, even in the absence of religion or the Bible. The mechanisms and explanations offered for a full evolutionary path from nothing -> microbes -> to mammals -> to people, are so vague and speculative that I can't see the point in getting so wrapped up in them. The fact that some are so convinced of their accuracy only serves to illustrate my point.

My whole purpose in engaging in this discussion at all is to point out that the 'science' isn't as convincing as many would like to believe, and that not every Christian is as wide-eyed as the ones you see on TV (and in some churches). I also wouldn't mind learning a bit and I've seen some posts with references (from both sides) that appear to lead to some meaningful discussions. The Wikipedia article is just one interpretation, one more person's opinion, in a debate that I've already said I think is bordering on pointless. I'm interested in what people think, rather than having them recite whatever scripture they think is meaningful from either camp. Real thinking and frankly, a certain amount of introspection (instead of knee-jerk reaction) is what makes this a useful exercise.

Klok, if you have a reasoned opinion (not a Wikipedia link), I'd be interested in hearing it.

SP
 
Language is social, not biological. Except that we have specialized brain regions for dealing with language. Is it so hard to imagine that the shape of the human brain affects the shape of human behavior?
I won't pretend to understand the way our brains work, but it seems to me that they mostly affect our abilities and capacity for knowledge, while society determines our behavior.

But Darwinian natural selection is clearly not at work in humans today. The human species is not reaching higher heights intellectually or physically, not adapting to a changing environment, and human society appears to be devolving (if anything), not evolving. As for the rest of nature (I've always argued that humans are part of nature, we just build better ant hills), most of the animal species that are becoming extinct are doing so because they cannot adapt to a changing environment. It would seem to me that evolution is failing pretty spectacularly, thus a faulty explanation to completely explain the development of life on earth.

You're mixing up adaptation and evolution.

And as for the Wikipedia thing, if you click the little numbers that appear in the article, they'll take you to the source of the statement. Wikipedia isn't just a free-for-all, write anything you want kind of thing. Uncited statements aren't tolerated.
 
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