Creeps in the Woods

i had an odd encounter many years ago, and reading can do's post struck a chord with me. that whole 'bad vibe' feeling and how we need to rtust our instincts. long story short, i was leading a three day backpacking trip for middle school kids. myself and two others teachers are chaperoning. we arrive at the campsite and settle the kids in, start making dinner, etc. the campsite is an adirondack lean to, with fire pit and water source, but a couple of miles from the trail head. in the late afternoon, three guys show up. they are clearly surprised to find twenty 7th graders swarming around. i introduce myself, explain what we're up to (that we are moving on at first light), and basically check them out. to my sensibility, and judging by their camping stuff (flannel sleeping bags, cookware taken from a kitchen vs. lightweight stuff) they are a group of friends looking to get away and have a good time. this is also confirmed when they start to pass around a bottle of jim beam. in conversation, they are friendly and joke around as to the difficulties of hiking with a big group of kids. ok so far. they set up about twenty yards from us, and ask if they can cook on the campsite's communal firepit. no problem, but i ask them not to drink in front of the kids. no problem.

night goes on, s'mores and ghost stories at our campsite, getting hammered at theirs. our female chaperone reports that when she walked up the trail a ways, the guys were smoking a joint. whatever. still no threat, but i am hyper-aware (and i should mention, carrying a Buck Hunter on hip) of their actions. at some point they ask if they can listen around the fire to ghost stories, and that is when i see one of the guys leering a little at our kids. not saying anything, not gesturing, but a look in his eyes that pops my adrenaline. i calmly pack the kids into the shelter, the guys head to their site, and i quietly alert the chaperones to the fact that we will be sleeping in shifts, and positioning ourselves defensively in the campsite.

nothing happened during the night. were they just three yahoos getting away from their wives for a night? don't know. but i will say i'm not sorry to have posted a 'watch' over the kids. i did and will continue to trust my gut feelings about such matters. thanks to the OP for starting thr thread.
 
oruacat2 said:
ps - this brings up a pertinent question regarding the Castle Doctrine: would your campsite be considered your "castle" in situation like those mentioned on this thread?
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Castle Doctrine specifically refers to your home or domicile, which excludes campsites and hotel rooms, although a few states have modified it to include vehicles in which you are traveling.
 
I'm glad the OP and his friend made it home.

Lots of posts here. Many good, some not so good, IMO.

I've taken some time to think about bad situations I've experienced in life and how I reacted to them and also hypothetical ones and how I might react or not react.

I've had three encounters in my 44 years where my life could have changed drastically or have ended at the hands of others who were up to no good or were drunk and carrying a weapon. Packing a gun and using it would not have saved me in any of them.

I'm all for legal carry in any form but it might be the least effective line of defense a non-LEO can have.
 
CoyotePhysics said:
I think that the best approach is to build a layered defense around yourself. Stay alert. Try to spot danger before your life is at jeopardy. An unarmed person who pays attention to the world around them is far better off than a person with a gun who is unaware and unprepared for an attack. If someone is armed and alert it means that they will have a last ditch means of survival in the final extreme, but toting a 1911 doesn't automatically turn someone into superman.
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Well said!
 
the only thing i would have done differently is not even finished tieing the knots. I would have just gathered the ropes and made an excuse to leave then and there. Its great that you had the forsight to have a view of the top while you were down bottom, but what if he had had the forsight to wait till the girlfriend was half way up before cutting or untieing the ropes?
 
CanDo said:
Do any of you know a good few casual questions to ask of people claiming marine or other military service? Something to judge whether or not it's BS other than intuition?
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I have not gone through all 9 pages to see if this was answered, I was Army and when someone claims they were Military I ask "What was your MOS" (military occupational specialty) and they will Immediately come back with 11 bravo, 12 echo, 31 charley etc. if they were. then if I am not familiar with it I will ask further q's like "what job is that" where were you stationed etc.

"Have a plan to kill everyone you meet" Col. Jeff Cooper
seems appropriate
 
If someone walked up to your car (while you were in it) opened the hood, ripped out the master brake cylinder, showed it to you and threw it into the street.... would you call that an attempt on your life? Again, I am not defending these creep's actions, but I am questioning a few people's ability to distinguish a clear threat to ones life vs. alarming actions of questionable intent. The two are very different in my book.
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Late to the party, but...

Your analogy is flawed because it doesn't take into account what my vehicle is doing at the time. If the car is parked on level ground and the brakes are disabled, that's no big deal. But, if I'm driving down the road when you disable my brakes, that's a clear threat to my life.

I'm not a climber and don't know anything more about it than what I see on TV. If cutting someone's anchor line is perfectly harmless, even while they are on the rope and climbing down the cliff, and amounts to nothing more than vandalism, you still have two questions that you need to ask yourself.

1. Did the guy cutting the anchor know that the anchor could be cut without jeopardizing anyone's safety?

2. Could the OP reasonably believe he or his girlfriend were in jeopardy of being hurt or killed by this guy's actions?

You cannot assume that that is the case. If he's anything like the majority of people in the US and elsewhere, he doesn't know any more than I do about the subject. If I saw someone rappelling down a cliff, the last thing I would want to do is touch their ropes, and I certainly wouldn't think I could cut something. Why? Because I'm afraid that my actions could result in them getting hurt.

As the climber on the cliff face, you don't know what this antagonist's background knowledge might be, but you have to assume and prepare for the worst case scenario just in case that's the right scenario. The guy cut one of your lines for no good reason (it wasn't like you were tangled in it and he was trying to help free you) and now have reasonable belief that this person means you great physical harm or death. Any reasonable person, a layman to climbing like myself, would reasonably assume that cutting anything could result in a fall and that fall would reasonably result in broken bones or death. There's no argument around that fact.

Then we come to the bug-out portion.

While you're separated from the antagonist, you have time, distance and ability on your side. You have no reasonable threat against you at this time.

But then you see that the antagonist is shadowing you.

This means the threat has returned.

You have reason to believe that he has ill-intent towards you, he cut that anchor, and is armed.

Still, you could say that you are not under any immediate threat to life or such.

That's when we get to the clearing and meet the other antagonist.

Now it's 2 males v. 1 male/1female. And both antagonists are armed.

We know the attacking party has, at least, a small knife and a baseball-sized rock.

So, that means we have a serious disparity of force in favor of the antagonists.

Question 2:

Am I in reasonable fear for my life or well-being? Or that of my Girlfriend?

Absolutely. (Just noted the OP states that there was 90' between parties at the parking lot. This seriously changes the threat level because the distance negates their weapons. If the gap closes, like approaching the car, then the threat level changes. But, at 90' you cannot show a reasonable fear for your well-being unless you see they have firearms. Brandishing your weapon at this point wouldn't be good, but if they flinch... It takes scant seconds to go from 90' to 20'!)

Consider this:

Combat engagements take place in seconds. In the time it takes to type this sentence, the rock guy could have wound up and delivered a fastball to your gut that takes the fight out of you long enough for him to close the distance and stick you with a shiv. He doesn't have to be good, he just has to get in that one lucky shot.

The only reason this situation turned out for the good is because the bad guys CHOSE to leave rather than attack. Yea, the cops might have gotten their in time. Yea, they might have stopped you from being killed.

But, the bottom line is that it was the bad guys choice that determined the outcome.

The OP did everything right. But the OP wasn't prepared for what would have happened if the bad guys chose differently. At that last minute, after calling the police, it all rested in the hands of the bad guys.
 
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To the OP, you did good to remove yourselves from the situation and call 911.

For the gun scenarios going on, a majority of you guys would be sleeping in the county hotel for thinking that shooting a creepy looking guy is justifiable. You have to play devil's advocate with this. Even tbough the guy was seen by the OP cutting the line, it's his word against a now dead creepy guy with an emotional family and the DA. You have to prove that the guy was the one who cut the line before you could even move forward with the intent scenarios. The now dead creepy guy was walking along on a public place the same as any of us and was shot over circumstantial evidence that he may have cut the line and even if he did cut the line we will never know his intent because you shot hm dead over property damages (criminal mischief a misdemeanor.in Texas for the $300 rope).

Having a gun on you gives comfort and some extra confidence, but it is an absolute last resort.
 
Just for the record, I think we should all give our credentials.

I spent 6.5 years in the security world, transporting millions of dollars around the area, and had the opportunity to train with some of the best instructors in the nation. I was cleared in NC and SC, and carried a gun on a daily basis. The absolute worst thing that could have happened to me was to draw my sidearm. In all that time, I never needed to. There were three instances where I could have, and I was really happy to have had the training that I had. Three times I was able to diffuse the situation without resorting to violence.

We're not talking about shooting a guy because he looked weird or acted "off". I've meet people on a daily basis that look and act weird, but they don't present any kind of threat that would justify drawing a pistol. The case presented in the OP is entirely different.
 
VaughnT said:
Late to the party, but...

Your analogy is flawed because it doesn't take into account what my vehicle is doing at the time.
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I believe you know what I meant, VaughnT. If someone can walk up and rip out the master brake cylinder while you are driving, i'm not sure that even a gun would be effective. I didn't think I could have come up with an all-encompassing analogy, so I did my best to be clear about the parameters. I appreciate your experience. While I don't have the credentials, I like to think that I posess enough common sense to make educated decisions. As I stated before... only the OP and his girlfriend know what happened and what the circumstances were, and they can't speak for the creeps either.

Have we settled the question of whether the ropes were cut or untied? The fact that the creep threw them over the edge tells me that he was making a statement, not a direct attempt at killing them.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Have we settled the question of whether the ropes were cut or untied? The fact that the creep threw them over the edge tells me that he was making a statement, not a direct attempt at killing them.
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well, as a part time climber in the past, if i was setting up a top rope, i'd have a main anchor, and some backups at different angles for rope strain/wear and to keep the jiggle down, and usually a major secondary with a tiny bit of slack to let me know something bad happened to the primaries.

imho, if someone removed ANY of those, cutting, untying (harder to do when system has been loaded), or whatever, i would have to believe that my life had been threatened as if someone pointed a gun at me. at a minimum, the system is now compromised until inspected, there's no way to KNOW from below what's wrong with it now.

a fall of 30-40 feet will really ruin your life, if you live. it's completely not funny, and the guy should've been arrested. at a minimum.

more horrifying, is if the bad guy starting dropping rocks on the people below. good thing he wasn't that smart.
 
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Bladite said:
imho, if someone removed ANY of those, cutting, untying (harder to do when system has been loaded), or whatever, i would have to believe that my life had been threatened as if someone pointed a gun at me. at a minimum, the system is now compromised until inspected, there's no way to KNOW from below what's wrong with it now.
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I could definately see how you would feel threatened but perceived threat is open to a huge window of personal interpretation. These guys were up to no good, that much is certain. We could go back and forth forever with analogies and opinions. I'll stop here.
 
As a fellow rock climber I will say that I would have taken somebody cutting my top-rope as as attempt to kill me or cause grievous bodily harm. No question. Dropping rocks over the cliff where I am climbing? You're trying to kill me. Period. Would I have summarily opened fire on him? No. BUT... It would certainly influence my response to any other aggressive actions he took against me or my loved ones. Out in the woods where help is nowhere to be found... We're going by a different set of rules. And I'm going to be the one to hold my wife and kids at the end of the day. Ideally I'd be able to whip out my digital camera and get a pic of the bad guy and report them to the police. But if pursued and I don't feel like I can get myself and my loved ones safely away from the threat....

I'm very much so a walk away from trouble kind of guy. But following me might prove to be a very bad mistake.

As far as castle doctrine is concerned, I suspect that one could successfully argue that your campsite (depending on location / situation) mould be covered by the law. I'm curious to know now if there have been any legal rulings related to it.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Have we settled the question of whether the ropes were cut or untied?
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Neither. People just don't bother to read what they're responding to.
Your analogies are nowhere close to reality, either. Our lives totally depend on this stuff.
 
OwenM said:
Neither. People just don't bother to read what they're responding to.
Your analogies are nowhere close to reality, either. Our lives totally depend on this stuff.
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Thanks for that sobering bit of input... I would have never guessed that losing your lines would make you fall... lol.
 
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I was enjoying the outdoors a month or so ago when suddenly a completely naked man starts walking up to us. I start lifting the knife off my belt and he walks past me (dumbfounded) and nonchalantly says "Don't mind me, I'm just looking for mushrooms". Then disappears into the brush.

I nearly crapped my pants. I was caught somewhere between Fight and Flight and didn't do either. I couldn't decide between "Defending Home & Country" and "Laughing My Rear Off".

Worse part.....I think I might actually know the guy from back home. *sigh*



Creep.


Dan
 
Daniel Koster said:
I was enjoying the outdoors a month or so ago when suddenly a completely naked man starts walking up to us. I start lifting the knife off my belt and he walks past me (dumbfounded) and nonchalantly says "Don't mind me, I'm just looking for mushrooms". Then disappears into the brush.

Creep.

Dan
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I think this post is more about creepy in the woods than creeps.:D
 
So I was out collecting mushrooms - in the nude, of course - and some weirdo was eyeballing me and drawing his knife. Totally freaked me out.
 
Foilist said:
So I was out collecting mushrooms - in the nude, of course - and some weirdo was eyeballing me and drawing his knife. Totally freaked me out.
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Man! Now that is super freaky!

Was he eyeballing a certain part of your body?
 
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