Creeps in the Woods

[Magnaminous_G]

These are some great and thoughtful posts, and some very good testimonials. I’d like to address something that a lot of these testimonials have brought up: people feeling bad about doubting a stranger’s intentions. We’re all good people, and we don’t want to discriminate against a guy who just looks creepy or acts weird. But I would like to make a point. What I do for a living involves interviewing/interrogating a lot of people suspected of fraud, smuggling, or worse. If this guy creeped you out, your gut was telling you something was off. Trust that. Does it mean he's an axe murderer? No, but it means that something is off. Maybe he just likes to wank off in that spot, and you're there... and that's what's causing the weird vibe. Maybe he's just a socially awkward guy and he gives everyone that vibe, but he's really a nice bloke. I know lots of people like that. Could be. Who knows. But never discount a gut reaction. Never.

Ask yourself: if it had been just another fellow hiker/camper in a good mood, just a regular kind of guy, do you think you would have gotten the same vibe? Probably not, right? You got that vibe for a reason. It doesn't mean you pull your knife out or start making accusations. It means you go from yellow to orange alert and increase your awareness. You should not feel bad about getting creeped out by someone. It happened for a reason, even if it actually benign. Someone posted a great example of how guys sometimes creep girls out when they try to pick them up. The reason why the “creep out” happens is because they are nervous and shifty and clearly want something and are trying to mask their intentions. Now, all they actually want is to talk to her and get to know her… but their vibe is almost the same as a rapist vibe, unfortunately. Luckily, in my line of business, I get to take the time and ask the questions to find out "why" the creep out happened, and so I'm talking from experience of interviewing/interrogating thousands of people.

If I had advice, I’d say the minute you start to get creeped out by someone, calmly and confidently look the guy right in the eyes and ask him something benign, like “Nice day, eh? So what are you up to today?” Don’t drop your gaze, and watch his reaction and the things he says. Direct eye contact will deter a lot of creeps, who are usually looking for an easy victim. Once they see you aren’t afraid (even though you might actually be scared shitless), they’ll pick someone else or call it a day. If they’re just an innocent weirdo or socially awkward guy, you should be able to find that out in a few minutes of conversation.

I would definitely not suggest that you follow the creep’s lead and keep him entertained by engaging in uncomfortable conversations he started. I would also definitely not suggest that you react aggressively or pull a weapon. Both of those reactions put the creep in the driver’s seat and—even worse—reveal that you are afraid. Criminals are notoriously good at feeling people out for weakness, and they’re looking for fear.

There’s some bad advice floating around here. I don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers, but I’m going to call it: Do not interrogate the creep by asking them their name, address, etc. Do not pull your weapon or tell anyone who creeps you out to “f*** off” unless there’s a clear threat. I also call b.s. on people saying, “Don’t forget, you’re probably creeping him out, too.” I don’t care if I’m creeping him out. Two minutes of behavior observation will make it very clear to him that my intent is benign… I’m also not following him or making weird conversation. You shouldn’t give a damn if you are creeping the creep out.

As for when the shit hits the fan… unfortunately, I’m not qualified to answer that. I’m not a combat or survival guy. Here’s one thing I do know: I do know that you should never, never let someone tie you up. If they threaten to hurt you, I personally would tell them to do their worst… but they ain’t tying me up. I repeat: never let someone tie you up.

Hope this helps. Stay safe!

 

[bulgron]

Not all thieves steal because they want to. Not all thieves are thugs. I made the distinction between violent crime and theft.

You know, I'd really like to agree with you, but I just can't.

It isn't about the stuff that they're stealing. Rather, it's about their intrusion into your own personal liberty.

In the United States, anyway, the whole point of our society, system of goverment, our laws, is SUPPOSED to be about preserving individual liberty. Someone who steals from me is violating my personal liberty by stealing my labor and making me afraid to replace that which I have lost.

Take the OP, for example. He was going to go rock climbing with his girlfriend. But because of the illegal actions of someone else, he no longer felt safe to do that. And so he didn't do that. In this way, his personal liberty was violated.

To me, that's a shooting offense. The law might not agree with me. The current "politically correct" groupthink that we're all supposed to live by doesn't agree with me. But as far as I'm concerned, as soon as you engage in violent and/or aggressive behavior that prevents me from engaging in peaceful activities that harm no one, you've crossed the line and you deserve to be met with force. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to behave in this way, and so the anti-social nut-jobs are free to run amok.

It all goes back to the old liberal argument about carrying a gun to prevent a mugging. "Is that $20 in your wallet worth the muggers life?" they'll ask you. My response: "No, but it isn't about the $20. It's about my right to walk down the street unmolested. And that IS worth the mugger's life."

 

[Liberando]

Magnaminous_G, thanks for sharing your wisdom...well said and much food for thought.

 

[Trent Rock]

I defy anyone here to distinguish me from some shady character.

Hahhahahah
Same here

I sometimes wear "urban clothing" in the woods..btw...and I'm NOT a shady character..

My problem is I'm afraid the "shady" guy is packing a BIGGER gun than me.....

 

[bearhunter]

bulgron, that was well said and i couldn't agree with you more. thanks...
that is what it is all about IMO; personal/individual freedom and liberty. NO ONE has the right to take that away. especially a petty thief. someone once stole a $1500 canoe and miscellaneous fishing and camping gear from my wife and i at a remote lake we were camping at (we had gone to get supplies that we had forgotten). we both believed that they should die and still do today! we went back to the same area several times, just hoping that they would show up with our canoe. never happened.
so i will just refer back to the mugger and the $20!
again, well said bulgron!

 

[stabman]

How about if someone tries to take your stuff, you beat them up?
You don't have to go around killing people all the time ya know.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

How about if someone tries to take your stuff, you beat them up?
You don't have to go around killing people all the time ya know.

Okay, creepy weirdo starts out acting like a deluded SF wannabe, which should trip your freak alarm -- then, he is observed cutting one of the OP's lines before being spotted and flying into a rage, denoting that he probably intended to murder the OP by cutting his other line as he was ascending the cliff -- finally, still not able to let it go, he continues by stalking the OP as if hunting him, with an accomplice, and this culminates with him threatening to bash the OP with a rock -- then the Mayberry PD intervene and decide to let the freak go because "no crime had been committed."

As for "just beating them up", I got the impression that the freak was much larger and stronger than the OP and he had an accomplice. No civilized fisticuffs for that sort of situation. If I was in that same situation, with a persistent homicidal freak stalking me while I was with my girlfriend, it probably would've ended badly for everyone. The OP was very lucky that he had cellphone reception to contact 911 and that the freak lacked motivation.

 

[Rick Marchand]

bulgron, that was well said and i couldn't agree with you more. thanks...
that is what it is all about IMO; personal/individual freedom and liberty. NO ONE has the right to take that away. especially a petty thief. someone once stole a $1500 canoe and miscellaneous fishing and camping gear from my wife and i at a remote lake we were camping at (we had gone to get supplies that we had forgotten). we both believed that they should die and still do today! we went back to the same area several times, just hoping that they would show up with our canoe. never happened.so i will just refer back to the mugger and the $20!
again, well said bulgron!

This, to me, is a very sick way of thinking.... especially petty thieves???? No arrest, no jail time, no community service... just death? Your liberties can be preserved through the judicial system (when it works properly). The law is not working the way it should, I agree. Why not put some effort into changing that? I can understand where you are coming from but still feel it is a shame that so many folks are led to think the way you do. Someday you may find yourself in that situation(on one side or the other) and it will hit you like a ton of bricks. I shutter to think what i would do if I saw my neighbor shoot two punks for trying to lift his car stereo. Anyway, we are who we are... our envionment plays a huge factor in social developement.

 

[OwenM]

Trying to find a way to blame the victim is what's sickening.

 

[XanRa]

You know, I'd really like to agree with you, but I just can't.

It isn't about the stuff that they're stealing. Rather, it's about their intrusion into your own personal liberty.

In the United States, anyway, the whole point of our society, system of goverment, our laws, is SUPPOSED to be about preserving individual liberty. Someone who steals from me is violating my personal liberty by stealing my labor and making me afraid to replace that which I have lost.

Take the OP, for example. He was going to go rock climbing with his girlfriend. But because of the illegal actions of someone else, he no longer felt safe to do that. And so he didn't do that. In this way, his personal liberty was violated.

To me, that's a shooting offense. The law might not agree with me. The current "politically correct" groupthink that we're all supposed to live by doesn't agree with me. But as far as I'm concerned, as soon as you engage in violent and/or aggressive behavior that prevents me from engaging in peaceful activities that harm no one, you've crossed the line and you deserve to be met with force. Unfortunately, we aren't allowed to behave in this way, and so the anti-social nut-jobs are free to run amok.

It all goes back to the old liberal argument about carrying a gun to prevent a mugging. "Is that $20 in your wallet worth the muggers life?" they'll ask you. My response: "No, but it isn't about the $20. It's about my right to walk down the street unmolested. And that IS worth the mugger's life."

+1

Trying to find a way to blame the victim is what's sickening.

+1!!!

 

[Myal]

I find the idea of killing kids for raiding cars , sad .

Still Im not gunna judge but I am going to ask , who else is trying to actually make a difference , and can you quantify your success / failure trying ?

I know that in the 13 or so years I been caring for kids Ive turned at least 20 around who were seriously feral , stealing to survive , so Im gunna put my hand u and say Ive taken 20 thieves off the street using my method , asking Why do they do this , what can I do here , and doing what I can and Ive even put the same number of reasonable kids back into society .

Im genuinely curious , who else is actually *doing* ( either shooting bad guys for stealing stereos or having them locked up or being a idiot like me and looking out for kids whose parents cant / wont or whatever ).. not just talking ?

 

[CoyotePhysics]

Myal, Thanks for what you do! I truly respect you efforts. For my part I'm a high school teacher, and I try my best to help my students any way that I can. There are many teens that continue to visit my room even after they are no longer in my class because they know that I care about them. Some of them have commited various types of crimes in their lives, but they are still valuable people. The counselors at my school have gotten to know me pretty well because I talk to them quite a bit about some of my students. The lucky ones have parents/guardians who care about them, but there are too many unlucky ones.

I don't think that the taking of another human's life is something to approach lightly or casually. I have seen people meet sudden violent deaths. I promise you that the human mind records the images and will play it back for you many times if you witness similar. I know law enforcement officers who experience night-terrors every time they sleep because of the things that they have seen.

I also am a person of faith. I believe that all people are children of God with divine potential, despite their mistakes. I respect and abide by the laws of the area that I live in, but I know that there is a higher law and that I, and everyone else, will meet with a perfect judgement one day.

At the same time I would like to say that I profoundly respect a persons right to defend themself and the people they love. I also support the freedoms that people enjoy where I live of being able to own and carry defensive weapons. I think there are times where the taking of human life is justified, and for me the line is this, "Is my life (or the life of someone else) in immediate danger?" If the answer is yes, then I would feel justified in acting.

I think that the best approach is to build a layered defense around yourself. Stay alert. Try to spot danger before your life is at jepordy. An unarmed person who pays attention to the world around them is far better off than a person with a gun who is unaware and unprepared for an attack. If someone is armed and alert it means that they will have a last ditch means of survival in the final extreme, but toting a 1911 doesn't automatically turn someone into superman.

 

[tyr_shadowblade]

I find the idea of killing kids for raiding cars , sad .

Every situation is different.

If the car was unlocked and some teenager helped himself to some change and CDs, that is your fault for not securing your property.

If the car has the window smashed, the glovebox pryed open, and other damage -- and that car is the most valuable thing you own and you cannot afford to get it repaired -- that kid deserves an ass whuppin' for that.

Here in Denver, we have gang members and illegal immigrants breaking into cars all the time, and if you go outside because you hear breaking glass they do not run away like they're supposed to, they shoot at you.

 

[stabman]

Here in Denver, we have gang members and illegal immigrants breaking into cars all the time, and if you go outside because you hear breaking glass they do not run away like they're supposed to, they shoot at you.

In which case it is a clear case of self-defense by any means necessary.

This thread has at least two different themes going now, and has practically nothing to do with original post any more.

 

[oruacat2]

I've only had one even remotely similar incident in all my years of hiking/camping/backpacking, and that happened up in Hyalite Canyon, outside of Bozeman, MT, back in the early 90s.
There were three of us and my blue heeler dog at the time, and we'd stopped to set up camp near the river. My buddies were setting up their tent in a small clearing while I was hanging my hammock and tarp about 20 yards away in a stand of trees, closer to the river. I hear voices - more than the two I'd hiked in with - so I kind of peak my head through the trees and I see two strange-looking guys just walk right into our campsite. They're both looking pretty raggedy - disheveled, unshaven, no shirts, but wearing BDU pants, and I can tell right away that my two buddies are very uncomfortable, but I can't really make out specifically "why" they're nervous. So, I slip my pistol into my jacket pocket, and along with my dog I saunter over there. They see me and the dog, and they glance at each other - and it's then that I see one of the dudes is barefoot, while the other has a freakin' samurai sword slung across his back. So now my radar warning bells are going crazy, and even the dog is growling that low, gutteral, deep-down-from-her-belly growl. The two strangers mutter something to each other, turn heel, and beat a hasty exit back up the trail. Now, they NEVER said or did anything threatening (although you don't just stroll into someone's campsite unannounced). I never flashed a weapon or made any threats, and I'm not particularly large or intimidating. The dog growled, but she stayed glued to my side the whole time. But the whole thing just didn't add up. We talked about it afterwards and I've often wondered if they planned to rob my two buddies - maybe thinking they were easy marks - until they noticed that they were outnumbered by an additional person (me) and a dog that they failed to notice initially. Who knows, really. Could've been all completely harmless, we'll never know. But it was weird as hell - particularly that damn samurai sword on the one guy's back. Not too much longer after that we started reading stories and hearing tales about Montana officials having problems with the "Freemen" group in various parts of the state, so in the 15 or so years since we often joke about our encounter with "two rogue Montana militiamen". haha

ps - this brings up a pertinent question regarding the Castle Doctrine: would your campsite be considered your "castle" in situation like those mentioned on this thread?

 

[Myal]

If its a case of self defence , for sure , do what you have to

I was wondering if anyone who had been previously posting about how its not the value of the crime but the principle of the crime that makes it good to kill a kid raiding a car was going to put their hand up and say how many times they put their beliefs into actions .

 

[stabman]

If its a case of self defence , for sure , do what you have to

I was wondering if anyone who had been previously posting about how its not the value of the crime but the principle of the crime that makes it good to kill a kid raiding a car was going to put their hand up and say how many times they put their beliefs into actions .

Probably not many.
It's usually more a case of male fantasy, if people are honest about it.
Most people don't actually want to kill each other, thank God.

 

[yetee]

Myal, Thanks for what you do! I truly respect you efforts. For my part I'm a high school teacher, and I try my best to help my students any way that I can. There are many teens that continue to visit my room even after they are no longer in my class because they know that I care about them. Some of them have commited various types of crimes in their lives, but they are still valuable people. The counselors at my school have gotten to know me pretty well because I talk to them quite a bit about some of my students. The lucky ones have parents/guardians who care about them, but there are too many unlucky ones.

I don't think that the taking of another human's life is something to approach lightly or casually. I have seen people meet sudden violent deaths. I promise you that the human mind records the images and will play it back for you many times if you witness similar. I law enforcement officers who experience night-terrors every time they sleep because of the things that they have seen.

I also am a person of faith. I believe that all people are children of God with divine potential, despite their mistakes. I respect and abide by the laws of the area that I live in, but I know that there is a higher law and that I, and everyone else, will meet with a perfect judgement one day.

At the same time I would like to say that I profoundly respect a persons right to defend themself and the people they love. I also support the freedoms that people enjoy where I live of being able to own and carry defensive weapons. I think there are times where the taking of human life is justified, and for me the line is this, "Is my life (or the life of someone else) in immediate danger?" If the answer is yes, then I would feel justified in acting.

I think that the best approach is to build a layered defense around yourself. Stay alert. Try to spot danger before your life is at jepordy. An unarmed person who pays attention to the world around them is far better off than a person with a gun who is unaware and unprepared for an attack. If someone is armed and alert it means that they will have a last ditch means of survival in the final extreme, but toting a 1911 doesn't automatically turn someone into superman.

Very well said, on all accounts. You remind me of a few teachers I had in high school here, but looking at your age I dont think you would have been one of mine. It is amazing how much a teacher that cares about their students can do.

I have to agree that the OP did everything right in his situation. The only thing I would have done differently is explain to the police officer that he basically tried to kill you by cutting your lines and that you want to press charges (based on what you have said, it would be a legitimate charge). During the time I have been with my employer I have had numerous run ins with the dirt of society (hope thats not too blunt), and have become good friends with several officers in the police department. You would be amazed at the number of people we have caught who the police had run into before and could not do anything because the people they "wronged" did not want to press charges for some reason. There are flaws in the legal system as well, because there are some people in the judicial system who do not want to deal with the work to "punish" these criminals to the extent of the law, and you have to be the one that gets them to do it.

I have to agree with Rick as well on just about everything. A car stereo, climbing ropes, a car, ect... are not worth the price of a life to me, and it is frightening how many people here are saying they would kill someone over $50 when there is no reasonable threat to life. However, if the criminal/thief has decided that it is worth killing over and reasonably makes me fear for my life then I will defend myself/loved ones.

Remember that "violence is rarely the answer, but when it is; it is the only answer". The OP did great in avoiding a violent encounter. Even though the guy cut his ropes and could/should be charged with attempted murder, had he shot the guy after the fact that he was safely on the ground and there was no reasonable threat left (even though he had a rock, was still too far away to employ it in a violent attack) he would be charged with murder. A prime example of this is the case that happened a little while ago where a pharmacist shot an armed robber and neutralized the threat (kid was on the ground no gun in hand, and not moving) and then proceeded to go back to his register, grab a new gun and shoot the kid on the ground when he posed no threat anymore. The first shots were justified as he was protecting himself. the last shots got him convicted of murder because there was no threat to his life when he did that.


I hope this all makes sense, its been a long day.

 

[oruacat2]

Yes, that all makes perfect sense and I agree with you. Good post.

 

[upnorth]

Interesting thread and story from the OP. I believe that the glass is half full when it comes to the general public, but there are the cases that we've just read, or experienced. I'll keep this one ultra brief. I was metal detecting out in the middle of nowhere in the country, not a house around. I was finding turn of the century coins and enjoying the warm sunny day. Then a van load of drunken natives (Indians) stopped close to me on the side of the road. They got out and urinated with little effort put into being discreet. They started yapping at me and getting belligerent as I wanted nothing to do with them. Finally things were getting warmer and I just shut up, dropped eye contact and used my peripheral vision while quietly walking to my car. I learned years ago that closing the yap stops the escalation.The cell was in the car and it was obviously safer than waiting for the verbal escalation to go nuke. I felt slightly safe being that I had a short shovel for defense, but the van had multiple yelling drunks and it shook me up being alone in total isolation. I locked the car and phoned the R.C.M.P., who have rural detachments all over. They took my story seriously and told me that a reserve was a few miles from were I was detecting. So ya, a guy can be minding his own business and the creeps come to you out of the blue. I wish no one harm to anyone, but I carry a folder 90% of the time, everywhere. I'm law biding with no criminal record. But, I will NEVER just bend over and say put it here. If it comes down and crosses the line, all bets are off. I'll gladly stand in front of a judge explaining my actions if option two was being lowerd into the ground, and yes, I'm in Canada also. With that said, I've gotten out of deteriorating situations 98% of the time by using my head, as opposed to any weapon. I feel for you OP, there are some really spooky freak jobs out there. Take care and heads up.:thumbup: