Creeps in the Woods

Its been terribly hot here.100 degree weather with high humidity. Yesterday, I noticed a man walking up hill in this heat, and not doing very well. He appeared to have Parkinsons {Which he did} . He was zapped of strength and plopped down on the curb. I stopped to offer assistance. At first he declined. Dont know if he was leery of me and my rusty truck or not, but I wasnt leaving him there . I talked for awhile and he finally accepted a ride to the barber. He locked his keys in the car and didnt want to be late so decided to try and hoof it.

I dont know if he didnt trust me at first or just wanted to be independent, but when he realized that I was genuinely concerned he changed his mind.
 
BigDude said:
Wilderness areas that are accessible by motor vehicles tend to be weirdo magnets.

I've spent many years wandering around various places and never had any real hassles. Being 6'4" and usually having a German Shepherd by my side has probably helped. I had a couple times on back roads late at night on a weekend where I had to ditch people - Got chased by a bunch of punks in a crap car, I was in my 4Runner. Lost them when I took a road that turned into trail and they got stuck. Another time, again in the 4Runner this time with some mods and Swampers, two ATVs were being a bit weird and I lost them after going through about 4 feet of water, I guess it was too deep for them.
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if you go back later, you might find yourself an ATV in that water :)
 
Rick Marchand said:
I once passed through this group of cute girls and said "hey ladies":cool:. They were shy face to face but as I walked away I could hear them whispering to eachother, "What and ass.... Yeah, what a waist."...................... so I got that going for me.:D:thumbup:


Rick
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Hey be careful with that joke; It's an Antique!!!

:p
 
Holy Crap, CanDo!
Thanks for the riveting story. I was getting more and more pissed as I read. :mad: I hate to be negative, but people are becoming worse and worse, in higher and higher concentrations. Its scary.

You're right, its too bad you didn't have the chance to kill the POS. He will definitely hurt someone in the not too distant future. Makes my blood boil.:mad: At any rate, I'm glad it didn't come down to violence, and that you and your GF be safe.
 
dipbait said:
Its been terribly hot here.100 degree weather with high humidity. Yesterday, I noticed a man walking up hill in this heat, and not doing very well. He appeared to have Parkinsons {Which he did} . He was zapped of strength and plopped down on the curb. I stopped to offer assistance. At first he declined. Dont know if he was leery of me and my rusty truck or not, but I wasnt leaving him there . I talked for awhile and he finally accepted a ride to the barber. He locked his keys in the car and didnt want to be late so decided to try and hoof it.

I dont know if he didnt trust me at first or just wanted to be independent, but when he realized that I was genuinely concerned he changed his mind.
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Good for you! Well done. My Dad passed on from Parkinsons. Not too many people are helpful these days where I live.... and yea , this heat blows! :)

Tostig
 
I think you handled it perfectly by not escalating the encounter and calmly and quickly removing yourself and girlfriend from the area. I agree with the XxdrpxX and Devil Pig on their points, the guy could have been arrested and a knife fight is the absolute last resort (running away is far better).

I've endured similar encounters. I hate that feeling of regret that stems from both enduring an insult that provoked fear for myself and loved ones (a feeling not being "in control"), and that innate longing for justice. Somebody threatens you, destroys your property, and avoids justice. It's a peculiar kind of angst you experience when justice is not done.

The creep that assaulted you may eventually act more aggressively and hopefully a LEO or sheepdog will handle him. But it may not go down like that. On some level, we have to be at peace with imperfect justice in this world. And like you say, we have to be educated about how to handle these type of situations. Thanks for posting.
 
here in MT you/we have the right to protect life and property with force no matter where you are. we also have the castle doctrine where there is no civil liability.
a few years ago there was a fellow in town who shot and killed someone for breaking into his vehicle and was not prosecuted.
that being said; as was mentioned in an above post, if you meet someone in the woods/wilderness here it's generally just regular nice montana folks or "hippies" who want to share a joint and or a beer with you. i have heard of some creepy stories from some of the remote natural hot springs that are around, but i never go to them anyway. i don't perticularly like the idea of me and my wife sitting in a hot spring 8 mi from the nearest road with random naked dudes/people. sorry, just not my idea of a goodtime...
the AT has been mentioned a few times. this story was told to me by an old friend from college. she swears that it is true:
her good friend (female) was doing a section of the AT solo for several days. she would leave her gear outside the tent some nights while she slept. when she got back from her trip and developed her photos, there were pictures of HER sleeping in her tent... my friend saw the photos... that story still gives me the creeps and i don't get creeped out that easily.
 
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I would love to know how cutting your anchor doesn't present a clear and immediate threat to your life? In SC, the statute says that you can use lethal force if there is a danger of death or "grave bodily injury". Not knowing anything about climbing, I would say that cutting any of those lines while people might be on the cliff face is presenting an opportunity for serious injury or death from an uncontrolled fall. The continued menacing and bringing in a partner only adds to that level. Once he showed himself on the trail with a rock in his hand, all bets are off.

Don't mean to come off sounding like joe toughguy, but I've seen too many instances where the good guy gave the bad guy all kinds of opportunities to not get violent, only to wind up with very bad injuries because the bad guy decided to go forward with his plan. You have to draw the line at some point, and I would caution you against anything stepping to quickly, but this guy cut your lines, followed you during your evac, and then appeared with a friend and a weapon. If that's not a clear-cut case for a self-defense shooting, I don't know what is.

This is a great example of surviving a dangerous situation, and we can all learn from it.
 
It's good to hear that you were able to walk away from the situation. I think too many people confuse self-defense for personal-security. I think you acted correctly for someone who was armed or unarmed. You kept it in the realm of personal-security. You never have to see this jerk again, or his family that would have tried to sue you for stoving his head in with a rock (self-defense) despite the fact that they probably disowned him ages ago. But do the rest of us a favor and file a police report on this goon. If he hurts anyone in the future the police will at least have a possible suspect complete with description.
 
bearhunter said:
here in MT you/we have the right to protect life and property with force no matter where you are. we also have the castle doctrine where there is no civil liability. a few years ago there was a fellow in town who shot and killed someone for breaking into his vehicle and was not prosecuted.
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That sickens me. Call me a wimpy Canadian with his rights stripped all you want. Killing someone for trying to take your "stuff" (unless it puts you or your loved ones at immediate risk) is just wrong. Even if my own son were to turn petty thief and try to steal someone's car radio, I would say he deserves the full punishment of the law.... BUT if someone were to make the decision to shoot him rather than call the cops (just cuz he has the right, by law)........ I don't know if I would be able to live knowing they breath the same air I do. It is laws like this that inadvertantly work against preserving the second amendment, IMHO. To relate this back to creeps in the wilderness, if someone is making off with your packs and you are 2 days into the woods.... I can see how this could pose a danger to your well being. Cutting ropes??? It seems they waited for you to be on the ground before cutting/untying the anchors, and made sure you knew by tossing them over the edge. I don't see that as an attempt on one's life... creepy? YOU BETCHA... They had a rock in their hand... didn't the OP have a knife and a rock in his? I'm not saying those two creeps were in the right but if the OP had a gun and chose to shoot them both, I would call that murder, not self defence.

VaughnT said:
I would love to know how cutting your anchor doesn't present a clear and immediate threat to your life?... /snip/... If that's not a clear-cut case for a self-defense shooting, I don't know what is.
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If someone walked up to your car (while you were in it) opened the hood, ripped out the master brake cylinder, showed it to you and threw it into the street.... would you call that an attempt on your life? Again, I am not defending these creep's actions, but I am questioning a few people's ability to distinguish a clear threat to ones life vs. alarming actions of questionable intent. The two are very different in my book.

CoyotePhysics said:
It's good to hear that you were able to walk away from the situation. I think too many people confuse self-defense for personal-security. I think you acted correctly for someone who was armed or unarmed. You kept it in the realm of personal-security. You never have to see this jerk again, or his family that would have tried to sue you for stoving his head in with a rock (self-defense) despite the fact that they probably disowned him ages ago. But do the rest of us a favor and file a police report on this goon. If he hurts anyone in the future the police will at least have a possible suspect complete with description.
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Very well put, sir.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
That sickens me. Call me a wimpy Canadian with his rights stripped all you want. Killing someone for trying to take your "stuff" (unless it puts you or your loved ones at immediate risk) is just wrong. Even if my own son were to turn petty thief and try to steal someone's car radio, I would say he deserves the full punishment of the law.... BUT if someone were to make the decision to shoot him rather than call the cops (just cuz he has the right, by law)........ I don't know if I would be able to live knowing they breath the same air I do. It is laws like this that inadvertantly work against preserving the second amendment, IMHO. To relate this back to creeps in the wilderness, if someone is making off with your packs and you are 2 days into the woods.... I can see how this could pose a danger to your well being. Cutting ropes??? It seems they waited for you to be on the ground before cutting/untying the anchors, and made sure you knew by tossing them over the edge. I don't see that as an attempt on one's life... creepy? YOU BETCHA... They had a rock in their hand... didn't the OP have a knife and a rock in his? I'm not saying those two creeps were in the right but if the OP had a gun and chose to shoot them both, I would call that murder, not self defence.


If someone walked up to your car (while you were in it) opened the hood, ripped out the master brake cylinder, showed it to you and threw it into the street.... would you call that an attempt on your life? Again, I am not defending these creep's actions, but I am questioning a few people's ability to distinguish a clear threat to ones life vs. alarming actions of questionable intent. The two are very different in my book.


Very well put, sir.
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I respectfully disagree

I can't go into the details to defend my point rightnow as I'm on my phone

But you know where I stand
 
XanRa said:
I respectfully disagree

I can't go into the details to defend my point rightnow as I'm on my phone

But you know where I stand
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You are certainly entitled to your opinions... I look forward to your input... this subject fascinates me. I'm not sure which points you are disagreeing with (everything?).

If it is the "rope cutting" and the "rock in hand" I feel that the way the OP described the scenario didn't validate killing anyone. I will say that they were well on their way to crossing that line, but it hadn't yet reached that point. I think the OP felt that way, too. Though, when put into that position, I would not blame someone for giving into fear and adrenaline and if they had the means, using lethal force. It still doesn't make it the right thing to do.

If it is the "killing for stuff" stance I took, please note that I stated "unless it puts you or your loved ones at immediate risk". That is a pivotal statement for my arguement. Someone rooting through your car in the driveway at night is very different from someone breaking into your house while your family is present. The latter is a direct threat to your well being and if someone has the impudence to invade my home while my wife and kids lay asleep in their beds???... as someone posted "all bets are off" and I will pass through them like the wind through a tree. I also took it further to include indirect threat to survival. Stealing all your food/gear to leave you stranded and at the mercy of the wilderness would be like cutting your air lines while SCUBA diving... the actual cut didn't kill you but the repercussions can be fatal.

Rick
 
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Rick Marchand said:
If it is the "killing for stuff" stance I took, please note that I stated "unless it puts you or your loved ones at immediate risk". That is a pivotal statement for my arguement. Someone rooting through your car in the driveway at night is very different from someone breaking into your house while your family is present. The latter is a direct threat to your well being and if someone has the impudence to invade my home while my wife and kids lay asleep in their beds???... as someone posted "all bets are off" and I will pass through them like the wind through a tree.

Rick
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That is much better

Something about the way you worded it before didn't sit right with me...
 
XanRa said:
That is much better

Something about the way you worded it before didn't sit right with me...
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Yeah, I was trying to word it correctly.... I even edited my last response just now to elaborate further. Thanks.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Yeah, I was trying to word it correctly.... I even edited my last response just now to elaborate further. Thanks.
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I think you worded it very well and you seem to articulate your thoughts in a very clear manner. That said I disagree with you. People shouldn't have to put up with thieves and thugs anymore than they should have to put up being intimidated or attacked. While I agree someone stealing a car radio should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in reality they won't be. Chances are they will never be caught and even if they are it is highly unlikely they will do anything to them unless they have a long history of criminal behavior. Hard working people shouldn't have to put up with such nonsense.

If I were thinking of stealing something I would probably decide against if I knew I could be shot for doing so. I don't know how many people are the same way. But I live in a place where you can protect your property as well as your life and we have very little crime. I don't know if this is the reason why but I suspect it has something to do with it.
 
Rick, taking life for anything isn't the goal, the goal is to say, hey, is that $20-$50 street value stereo worth your life?
The criminal decides it is and meets his maker.

Saying they should be punished at the fullest extent of the law... whose law, here, that IS the law in some states, not in your provinces. You have laws that fit your country, we have laws that fit ours (with the exception of every unconstitutional law that has been passed)

The right thing to do every day is to stay alive, the wrong thing to do is to willingly put yourself in a perilous situation and then dial 911 and hope superman comes and saves you.

The idea behind castle doctrine is that it's yours, your property is a real hedge against death, if I go to work and someone steals my POS car it's a big deal, if they steal it and I get a call about my family being in the hospital with 30 minutes to live and I now can't make it there on time.... I'd consider putting someone else in the same situation, and I should NEVER think that... which means horse err. I mean car thieves oughta be shot on the spot.
 
Not all thieves steal because they want to. Not all thieves are thugs. I made the distinction between violent crime and theft. I don't condone theft and think there should be laws that punish those who are willing to take the risk. Death shouldn't be a punishment for anything outside of crimes against humanity(given a few exceptions that I'm probably forgetting). There should be laws against an employer firing someone who couldn't make it in because their car was stolen. If we are going to dig as deep as saying... "if they steal it and I get a call about my family being in the hospital with 30 minutes to live and I now can't make it there on time." where does it end? Do you start taking out aggressive drivers?.. protesters who block the streets? Personally, if I only had 30minutes to live, I wouldn't want my wife killing anybody in order to see me before I pass... let alone to commit justified murder as a preemptive measure in the possible likelyhood of that scenario.

There are some cultures where in order to preserve "honour", it is a man's right to kill his daughter if she was raped. It's not about laws, constitutions and personal property..... It's about being human and valuing human life above material goods or inconveniences.

I apologize for the topic drift... I just feel there are those who would who choose to exercise their rights because they can, rather than out of necessity.


Rick
 
This is a problem Im kinda personally interested in

I became a foster carer .. I figure out of the 40+ kids who have called my house home , Ive taken easily taken 22 kids who were in care because they were stealing to survive off the street , and returned to society the same number of rock solid respectable individuals . Just showing them they have options , and helping them develop a sense of self worth and self respect .

I kinda approached the problem from a different angle , breaking the crime cycle early , hopefully permanently for those kids .
 
From the OP's details it seems fairly clear to me that the guy was a total psycho who would have thought nothing of killing him and raping his girlfriend, and I truly believe that was his intent. I would have dealt with this situation differently.
 
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