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Oh, I get it. You prefer to forge under the moonlight.
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Critiquing~Is there really a problem?
- Thread starter Kevin Jones
- Start date
OilMan
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On the flip side of that you devalue your own opinion if all you ever say is good things too.
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IMO, we tend to dwell on the occasional rude negative post/critiques, but don't really give the positive ones much thought which is quite natural.
It can be compared to tennis. When you look back over the years which great tennis stars come to mind first Rod Laver, Bjorn Borg who were always well behaved or Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe? Yes, bad behavior always tends to linger in our minds.
Over the last few days, I have spent some time going back through the more popular threads of recent months and the rude abrasive posts are all but non-existence as compaired to the number of good constructive ones.
It's not surprising either that it's only a handful of collectors that are responsible for most of these harsh critiques. You also start to wonder how some makers even make it through a major show considering how sensitive they are to the critiquing of their work.
It can be compared to tennis. When you look back over the years which great tennis stars come to mind first Rod Laver, Bjorn Borg who were always well behaved or Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe? Yes, bad behavior always tends to linger in our minds.
Over the last few days, I have spent some time going back through the more popular threads of recent months and the rude abrasive posts are all but non-existence as compaired to the number of good constructive ones.
It's not surprising either that it's only a handful of collectors that are responsible for most of these harsh critiques. You also start to wonder how some makers even make it through a major show considering how sensitive they are to the critiquing of their work.
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I know this topic is getting REALLY old, but I have a suggestion that has never been put forth:
Create a longstanding 'Constructive Critique' thread.
This one place will allow the rules of engagement to open up for dialog, and there would be no ambiguity about the maker's intentions. Posting in there allows you are ready to learn--or teach. Bring and use your best skills, by hand or with words.
I have been happily impressed at the actually gentler responses to fresh work delivered since we have started this lengthy dialog, and I trust that the members of this forum can, and will, remain fair, as well as provide great input.
Whenever I see a knife posted without a mention of CC allowance, I wonder how receptive or willing the poster's intentions are. This would alleviate that.
I would also find it interesting watching how many would keep away. That's telling in itself.
Food for thought.
Coop
Create a longstanding 'Constructive Critique' thread.
This one place will allow the rules of engagement to open up for dialog, and there would be no ambiguity about the maker's intentions. Posting in there allows you are ready to learn--or teach. Bring and use your best skills, by hand or with words.
I have been happily impressed at the actually gentler responses to fresh work delivered since we have started this lengthy dialog, and I trust that the members of this forum can, and will, remain fair, as well as provide great input.
Whenever I see a knife posted without a mention of CC allowance, I wonder how receptive or willing the poster's intentions are. This would alleviate that.
I would also find it interesting watching how many would keep away. That's telling in itself.
Food for thought.
Coop
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To follow-up on Coop's above post - Several of the better photography forums out there limit critiques to specific sub-forums, and often call them C&C (critique and comment) forums. Because of the kind of problems we're seeing here, the photography forums to which I'm referring learned long ago that you have to separate critiquing from sharing. It's smart and it works.
Here's an example from another thread on this forum that serves as a common, but not outrageous by any means, example supporting the kind of separation Coop mentions and many other well-established forums use: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545904
In this example everyone is well-meaning and polite but here's what happened: Maker posts knife and does not request critique, suggestions for doing anything differently etc. Collector suggests a different handle treatment. Maker points out the obvious reason said handle treatment would not be appropriate. Collector understands. Later another poster wonders about yet another possible handle treatment. Maker had not responded directly (as of my last reading) but did point out that this particular knife was specifically made for a customer.
I cannot speak for any of these parties but if I were the customer for whom that knife was made, or if I was the maker, the last thing I would want to see in a post where no critique was requested, would be a bunch of "What if..." or "You might consider in the future..." type comments.
Additionally, as one who might be tempted make one of those types of comments to the maker, I would not like to embarass myself by diverting the focus of the thread onto my own basic educational needs concerning the vagaries of certain types of handle materials. This is why, again IMHO, the most astute collectors also watch (and occasionally post questions) those forums specific to makers. One learns a lot by simply listening (and not butting in) to the exchanges between makers on their forums.
So, IMHO, in addition to having a specific area for critiquing knives, photos or whatever, it also makes sense to respect the fact that some makers may post pictures of their work and not request a critique for reasons that may not be obvious to the person who often feels compelled to critique anyway - for example, sparing the new owner any heartburn or embarassment. If C&C is not requested everyone should respect that. And yes, that means kumbaya all the way! Nothing nice to say? Then don't say anything at all.
To claim that anyone who posts their work here is de facto asking for feedback (without specifically requesting it) leads to many problems. Other forums have already discovered this and I don't think it is necessary to re-invent the wheel here, so to speak, when good structure and strategy on forums can go a long way toward avoiding the senseless head-banging so evident in this (and other recent threads).
We might do well to adopt the solutions that have already been worked out in other forums and proven to be successful.
Here's an example from another thread on this forum that serves as a common, but not outrageous by any means, example supporting the kind of separation Coop mentions and many other well-established forums use: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545904
In this example everyone is well-meaning and polite but here's what happened: Maker posts knife and does not request critique, suggestions for doing anything differently etc. Collector suggests a different handle treatment. Maker points out the obvious reason said handle treatment would not be appropriate. Collector understands. Later another poster wonders about yet another possible handle treatment. Maker had not responded directly (as of my last reading) but did point out that this particular knife was specifically made for a customer.
I cannot speak for any of these parties but if I were the customer for whom that knife was made, or if I was the maker, the last thing I would want to see in a post where no critique was requested, would be a bunch of "What if..." or "You might consider in the future..." type comments.
Additionally, as one who might be tempted make one of those types of comments to the maker, I would not like to embarass myself by diverting the focus of the thread onto my own basic educational needs concerning the vagaries of certain types of handle materials. This is why, again IMHO, the most astute collectors also watch (and occasionally post questions) those forums specific to makers. One learns a lot by simply listening (and not butting in) to the exchanges between makers on their forums.
So, IMHO, in addition to having a specific area for critiquing knives, photos or whatever, it also makes sense to respect the fact that some makers may post pictures of their work and not request a critique for reasons that may not be obvious to the person who often feels compelled to critique anyway - for example, sparing the new owner any heartburn or embarassment. If C&C is not requested everyone should respect that. And yes, that means kumbaya all the way! Nothing nice to say? Then don't say anything at all.
To claim that anyone who posts their work here is de facto asking for feedback (without specifically requesting it) leads to many problems. Other forums have already discovered this and I don't think it is necessary to re-invent the wheel here, so to speak, when good structure and strategy on forums can go a long way toward avoiding the senseless head-banging so evident in this (and other recent threads).
We might do well to adopt the solutions that have already been worked out in other forums and proven to be successful.
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If I were the (very fortunate) customer in question that would not trouble me in the least. I buy a knife to please one person only: me. If others like it, great. If they don't, that's okay too. If someone would prefer it with a slightly different guard / handle / blade shape etc. why would I take offense? It's not their knife and I am happy with it the way it is, so where's the problem? Maybe I have an overly fertile imagination, but I can conceive of a long list of items that would rank far ahead of someone inquiring as to a construction method or suggesting a different handle treatment as "the last thing I would want to see" as the customer of the knife.
I look at the thread and think it is probative of the exact opposite conclusion you have drawn. Maker shows knife. Multiple collectors heap praise upon it. One asks a question - and does so in a forthright manner that displays not the least bit of hostility or mean-spiritedness. Maker responds not defensively, but with an admirably professional candor. In my opinion, this thread demonstrates the value of open discussion between makers and collectors conducted in a courteous and respectful manner. It hardly represents something we need to avoid at all costs.
Sorry Buddy, I just don't see it your way. At all.
Roger
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I've made mistakes in this forum in defending a 'share the love' thread from critique. There's already a Share the Love subforum and it's employed to good effect. A lot of the complaints levelled against the folks refusing to be Pollyannas refuse to take into account that those folks are part of the reason why this subforum often has more traffic than the Share the Love subforum.
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I say "share the love," especially for the bowie to which you linked; but share it in the Share the Love subforum if you don't want to share others' offputting opinions, requests, and suggestions.
Criminy. I'm starting to post like Mr. Snody - only no knife I've ever made actually looks good.
Tai Goo
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I agree with Buddy and Coop. This is just a general forum. The gallery is also general sharing.
There should be a special place for "serious critique". I would vote for that. Then things would be a lot more clear cut, instead of this free for all.
There should be a special place for "serious critique". I would vote for that. Then things would be a lot more clear cut, instead of this free for all.
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My link goes to the gallery, Joss. You can post pics there or here, but the risk is that this is the place where a lot of people will tell you what they think you need to hear whether or not it is your want or need.
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Sometimes its not so much what you say but how you say it I guess. We can all be counseled at times to take a step back and make sure our wording is presented in a manner that will come across less offensively to another but few take time to worry about this on public forums I think. This was one of my main issues with Cliff Stamp so many times because he had great critiques and he brought up many valid points but he was not the least bit worried about how he came across to say what he said to other members and was interpretted as being condescending and adversarial which led to the very 'battles' you mention in your first post Kevin.
I believe with the written word its especially troublesome at times because it is so easy to read into posts a tone that may or may not even be there at all or intended by the person that wrote it so in this regard its sometimes taken the wrong way by those reading it. I feel that not being sympathetic or the least bit worried about relationships in this small industry of ours rubs a lot of folks including myself the wrong way because we should all be able to say what we feel with a caring attitude and not that of a smart a$$ just out to stir the pot. I have been very critical of some locks in the production folder end of the market and this on occasion has been hotly debated but mostly by fans and not the maker or manufacturer reps. It has caused some of the fans of the knives discussed to even go so far as to send hate mail to me. So, even caring about what you critique can backfire on you. At these times agreeing to disagree won't solve anything. Sometimes its seems bridges are just going to burn down. Its a shame but it seems to go with the territory.
Critiques are sometimes going to go the wrong way. It happens frequently when its a critiqe not asked for or solicited I think unless its a postive one but sometimes when people ask you to eval a folder or fixed blade for them or even several they really don't want to hear the negative stuff you find at all. I've had some get offended and defensive when this occurs. Thank god my evals were private at that time because on a forum I can only imagine the thread that would ensue.
I eval and review a lot of folders and some prototypes out there for folks and I've been fortunate to work with some manufacturers also but I really don't know any better now than I did when I first started dealing with folks closely on this how to make the bad part of what goes with the territory go away because it still occurs on occasion. I wrote a rather negative review of a folder designed by a guy I consider to be a friend that really bothered me to have to say I feel its the least reliable folder of its type on the market but its how I feel after testing it. It doesn't mean it is written in stone. All it is is my opinion in the end and I think that is where folks need to focus. Its just a single opinion of many that see the knife. After all in the grand scheme of things we are all just small specks anyway so I recommend seeing it that way if you can find it within yourself to do so.
STR
I believe with the written word its especially troublesome at times because it is so easy to read into posts a tone that may or may not even be there at all or intended by the person that wrote it so in this regard its sometimes taken the wrong way by those reading it. I feel that not being sympathetic or the least bit worried about relationships in this small industry of ours rubs a lot of folks including myself the wrong way because we should all be able to say what we feel with a caring attitude and not that of a smart a$$ just out to stir the pot. I have been very critical of some locks in the production folder end of the market and this on occasion has been hotly debated but mostly by fans and not the maker or manufacturer reps. It has caused some of the fans of the knives discussed to even go so far as to send hate mail to me. So, even caring about what you critique can backfire on you. At these times agreeing to disagree won't solve anything. Sometimes its seems bridges are just going to burn down. Its a shame but it seems to go with the territory.
Critiques are sometimes going to go the wrong way. It happens frequently when its a critiqe not asked for or solicited I think unless its a postive one but sometimes when people ask you to eval a folder or fixed blade for them or even several they really don't want to hear the negative stuff you find at all. I've had some get offended and defensive when this occurs. Thank god my evals were private at that time because on a forum I can only imagine the thread that would ensue.
I eval and review a lot of folders and some prototypes out there for folks and I've been fortunate to work with some manufacturers also but I really don't know any better now than I did when I first started dealing with folks closely on this how to make the bad part of what goes with the territory go away because it still occurs on occasion. I wrote a rather negative review of a folder designed by a guy I consider to be a friend that really bothered me to have to say I feel its the least reliable folder of its type on the market but its how I feel after testing it. It doesn't mean it is written in stone. All it is is my opinion in the end and I think that is where folks need to focus. Its just a single opinion of many that see the knife. After all in the grand scheme of things we are all just small specks anyway so I recommend seeing it that way if you can find it within yourself to do so.
STR
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Roger - Rarely do I not see (and agree) to your point of view, but you are wrong in my mind. Sure, a collector may have influence in a piece and then the maker delivers it just as he asked. Collector may not have had the best ideas, but the savvy maker has built it to what was asked.
Said piece is posted, and in come the 'preferences'. Now there is a 50/50 chance that the collector now sees the error of his choices and is second guessing. A few have challenged his choice. He is not getting the accolades he thought. Bummer for him, and now he regrets the piece just a little bit.
He also MAY have thick skin and simply want it that way, and is not offput. Like you imply.
Again, I stated to offer a specific thread or a CC captioning in the header or body, NOT a subforum. One step at a time.
I also agree that the Gallery is there to show off all kinds of things, and is very non specific. This is a very specific forum here.
Why would this be so offputting? It appears to be exactly what would eliminate 30 pages of How do we handle this..??
Coop
Said piece is posted, and in come the 'preferences'. Now there is a 50/50 chance that the collector now sees the error of his choices and is second guessing. A few have challenged his choice. He is not getting the accolades he thought. Bummer for him, and now he regrets the piece just a little bit.
He also MAY have thick skin and simply want it that way, and is not offput. Like you imply.
Again, I stated to offer a specific thread or a CC captioning in the header or body, NOT a subforum. One step at a time.
I also agree that the Gallery is there to show off all kinds of things, and is very non specific. This is a very specific forum here.
Why would this be so offputting? It appears to be exactly what would eliminate 30 pages of How do we handle this..??
Coop
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Roger - Rarely do I not see (and agree) to your point of view, but you are wrong in my mind. Sure, a collector may have influence in a piece and then the maker delivers it just as he asked. Collector may not have had the best ideas, but the savvy maker has built it to what was asked.
Said piece is posted, and in come the 'preferences'. Now there is a 50/50 chance that the collector now sees the error of his choices and is second guessing. A few have challenged his choice. He is not getting the accolades he thought. Bummer for him, and now he regrets the piece just a little bit.
First of all - it's more than okay for you to think I am wrong.
Perhaps I have just unusually thick skin - but I have posted just about every knife I have ever purchased on the forums and really haven't perceived a problem with the responses. If someone doesn't like something about my knife it really doesn't bother me. If something they post causes me to second-guess my choices, that's not something to condemn them for, but to thank them for. I have learned a lot over time from just precisely such comments (on and off-line) and as a result the choices I make now are manifestly NOT the same as those I would have made 10 years ago. But I actually see this as a positive thing.
We already have a knife-discussion forum. It is here and now. I see no need for a knife non-discussion forum.
Roger
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Coop,
This forum is where we discuss custom knives. If one posts a knife here, it should be free to discuss it.
I would agree to a rule saying that knives posted on the gallery are not to be critiqued.
What I have 0 interest in is a forum where a knife can only receive feedback if the thread says so. If you post a knife here, it's open to being discussed (politely). Of course, there's no guarantee.
This forum is where we discuss custom knives. If one posts a knife here, it should be free to discuss it.
I would agree to a rule saying that knives posted on the gallery are not to be critiqued.
What I have 0 interest in is a forum where a knife can only receive feedback if the thread says so. If you post a knife here, it's open to being discussed (politely). Of course, there's no guarantee.