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I'm multifaceted...
and a very sick puppy!
... and those are my good qualities!
LOL!!! Love it!
Nice answer.
-
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Critiquing~Is there really a problem?
- Thread starter Kevin Jones
- Start date
LOL!!! Love it!
Nice answer.
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Bob, to solve a problem, you have to first address the problem.
That was my purpose in starting this thread, and I for one am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel with the exception of the occasional snide remark and insults from a few.
Tai Goo
BANNED
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LOL
Cool!
Let's make it about me! I need more of this kind of attention!
Here's another cute IMP shot, from Christmas past.
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Can you post the minimum requirements list for makers to refer to before deciding if what they just made is good enough to be posted? Is it the "dealbreakers" thread? JS or above? Minimum years? Or an ethereal kind of "you should just know by looking" kind of thing, which means the knives collectors themselves post drives what is acceptable...
If a new maker cannot post his knife on a forum called "custom and handmade knives," and receive encouragment, where should he post? If its the maker's gallery, who does he forward his work to as he progresses to get approval to be viewed here? Surely someone "has the time" to review them...
If a maker doesn't "know better," who should he ask or what should he refer to?
Im beginning to think best option would be to call this "Custom Knife Collecting" and have sub-forums based on pricerange/ability, because "Custom and Handmade Knives" doesn't quite fit the atmosphere. That is OK, though...perhaps over time there has become almost an expectation of a certain higher level of knife that is welcome here, and its not a horrible thing to admit that, but it might be the source of some of the recent discussions and offline comments from other makers.
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Here's a new maker (only seventeen) that has been posting his work here pretty regularity. Doesn't seem to be intimidated at all. He's been well received and soaking up productive critique like a sponge. Here's his most recent post.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545557
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544072
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- Nov 20, 2001
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- 7,353
David,
This is a (relatively) free forum. Of course, beginning makers are always welcome to post, anything and everything, but they also shouldn't feel entitled to anything.
I have no time or inclination to comment on mediocre pieces. Very often, I don't comment meaningfully even on some high quality pieces, simply because I have nothing to add. I thank the maker, congratulate them, and that's it.
If some beginning makers cannot progress without seeing their first pieces receive supporting comments however average they are, then this might indeed not be the right place for them. If on the other hand they have a thick enough skin that they can see 4 or 5 of their posts sink without comment, and extract good info from the "constructive criticism" on a 6th post, then this place has lots to offer.
Beginning makers should be familiar with the average standards of work of the knife making community, and this is a good idea to have in mind on the minimum level of quality one should expect to receive some level of attention here, and for the collector community to invest the time and effort it takes to write useful comments.
This forum is not an admiration society. Makers should post here seeking something very specific (promoting their work, seeking criticism) and collectors too (discovering worthy makers, eye candy, etc). If anyone here expects something not mutually beneficiary, then they are dreaming.
You'll note that the other side of that coin is that we collector don't get to see posting here any of the top 20 makers. Ron Lake, Bob Loveless, Ray Appleton, Larry Fuegen, etc, etc, don't post here because this is a time sink and they don't have much to gain from it.
There are exceptions from those general ideas of course. It's possible that a new maker who decides to post here some average work receive useful comments and encouragements. This can be because one of us saw potential, or because we have some time and are in a good mood, and we all want to improve the reach of the custom knife world. You'll find that despite what I say above, I often end up commenting on a piece if I like some aspect of it, even if it isn't anything fancy. But I completely reject the idea that this forum should be an encouragement society. This is a court of opinion, and to be noticed (positively), you'd better have a good product, and present it and yourself professionally (that doesn't mean you can't be a goofball - it means you know when to stop).
This is a (relatively) free forum. Of course, beginning makers are always welcome to post, anything and everything, but they also shouldn't feel entitled to anything.
I have no time or inclination to comment on mediocre pieces. Very often, I don't comment meaningfully even on some high quality pieces, simply because I have nothing to add. I thank the maker, congratulate them, and that's it.
If some beginning makers cannot progress without seeing their first pieces receive supporting comments however average they are, then this might indeed not be the right place for them. If on the other hand they have a thick enough skin that they can see 4 or 5 of their posts sink without comment, and extract good info from the "constructive criticism" on a 6th post, then this place has lots to offer.
Beginning makers should be familiar with the average standards of work of the knife making community, and this is a good idea to have in mind on the minimum level of quality one should expect to receive some level of attention here, and for the collector community to invest the time and effort it takes to write useful comments.
This forum is not an admiration society. Makers should post here seeking something very specific (promoting their work, seeking criticism) and collectors too (discovering worthy makers, eye candy, etc). If anyone here expects something not mutually beneficiary, then they are dreaming.
You'll note that the other side of that coin is that we collector don't get to see posting here any of the top 20 makers. Ron Lake, Bob Loveless, Ray Appleton, Larry Fuegen, etc, etc, don't post here because this is a time sink and they don't have much to gain from it.
There are exceptions from those general ideas of course. It's possible that a new maker who decides to post here some average work receive useful comments and encouragements. This can be because one of us saw potential, or because we have some time and are in a good mood, and we all want to improve the reach of the custom knife world. You'll find that despite what I say above, I often end up commenting on a piece if I like some aspect of it, even if it isn't anything fancy. But I completely reject the idea that this forum should be an encouragement society. This is a court of opinion, and to be noticed (positively), you'd better have a good product, and present it and yourself professionally (that doesn't mean you can't be a goofball - it means you know when to stop).
David, there is no cut and dried answer. Everyone has their own level of comfort putting themselves out there for public scrutiny. Makers come from all different molds just like everyone else. Only you can know when you are ready to post your work in a forum where it will be judged virtually side by side with works from some of the best makers in the world.
Let me ask you this: If you put a knife down on a table at a show, and it doesnt sell, who is to blame?
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Joss, I appreciate your reply. I was being obtuse on purpose, basically to point out that for newer makers, its hard to believe this:
How can newer makers feel "welcome" if the same people telling them they should feel welcome are saying:
Feeling welcome and physically being permitted to do something are two different things.
How can newer makers feel "welcome" if the same people telling them they should feel welcome are saying:
Feeling welcome and physically being permitted to do something are two different things.
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 3,148
David, this IS the collecting forum. Bladeforums has a "Gallery Forum". We have a "Knifemakers" forum. This particular forum has ALWAYS been a Custom Knife Collector forum since the inception of BFC.
The moderators are well known collectors and so are many of the participants.
This forum doesn't need any extra rules or baggage. If anyone is too fragile to read some members posts they can put that member on ignore. Should people use common sense when they post? Absolutely! In my business I always prefer that I get unvarnished feedback from my customers. Without their feedback I can never improve my performance. If more knifemakers looked at their livliehood more like a business and less like a protective mother they would in turn improve their craft and their business.
In a down economy, knifemakers should do everything they could to improve their market position and stature. What you (and everyone else that makes custom, handmade knives produce) are non-essential, luxury items, high art or not.
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- Oct 5, 1998
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If you are looking for the gratuitous back slapper forum I think you are in the wrong place.
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- Feb 28, 2002
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No, no, no Kevin. Some vocal forum critics only want you to look at the makers who have said they are uncomfortable / intimidated and completely ignore the input from those makers who seem to manage just fine. That latter group simply doesn't accord with their characterization of the forums, so it's easier just to pretend they don't exist.
Roger
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- Nov 13, 2004
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- 650
I don't think I've said anything insulting to STeven in the context of this thread and would like to think I would speak similarly in person under similar circumstances (if there are such things in real life).
I think too that, while STeven might not welcome my comments, he wouldn't take them as an insult. It would be the pot calling the kettle black.
As for your comment on moderators, you might be less amazed if you were not so transparently favoring someone you know.
Dave
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 3,148
It is clear that makers and collectors have different goals, especially relating to this forum.
Most makers have a goal of being able to make a living making knives.
My goal is not to go broke by buying the wrong knives.
Why is this disconnect so hard to understand?
Most makers have a goal of being able to make a living making knives.
My goal is not to go broke by buying the wrong knives.
Why is this disconnect so hard to understand?
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- Dec 3, 1999
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- 9,437
Wow, this has gotten interesting!!! 
I can empathize with both sides.... or so me thinks
I AM a KNIFEMAKER (as in not a collector or purveyor) and started with a file and bench grinder just like most people did... so I can appreciate that end of it. I remember very well how it felt making something pretty crude and being proud as punch of it and not wanting to hear ANYTHING BAD about it. BUT! I also stuck my neck out and started posting on forums like this a long time ago and got exposure and feedback. A lot of what pushed me in the direction I'm working in now was all me.... but it sure helped to have people giving me insight as to what was working and what wasn't.
EDITED TO ADD- Some of my more challenging pieces that helped me grow as a maker were knives commisioned by guys that post here, or at least keep an eye on this forum. That, to me, means a lot.
Sometimes the replies I see in here seem arrogant and/or pointless... However, I would also like to point out that while you may get a more warm and fuzzy feeling from other makers, they're not the ones digging into their pocket book at the end of the day to determine whether or not your knife is really all that great or not.
We can slap each other on the back all day, but it's getting your knives into the hands of real users and/or collectors that get you established (and to a spot where you can buy more equipment).
An experienced, quality knife maker giving you an honest appraisal of your work (both good and bad points) is priceless (IF you listen). But one just saying you're awesome doesn't do you any more good than something like what Justin described that collector saying to him. And for the record, that guy was just being a dick. There's no call for that kind of behavior... simply based on an appreciation for a fellow human being. There are makers that will act that way too, and they are dicks, just like that collector.
Seems to me that maybe some of the guys that are posting all the replies could probably ease up a bit, especially on the subjective elements, and at the same time some of the makers could get a little more grit.
Notice I said COULD... not should
I've been hammered pretty damn hard online, in person at shows, and over the phone... but I didn't let it stop me. I'm sure I'll hear more flack as the years go by, but I can see where I'm going and I don't intend on letting anybody stop me
Just some food for thought.
ps- WTF does food for thought even mean??? I mean.... Really?
I can empathize with both sides.... or so me thinks
I AM a KNIFEMAKER (as in not a collector or purveyor) and started with a file and bench grinder just like most people did... so I can appreciate that end of it. I remember very well how it felt making something pretty crude and being proud as punch of it and not wanting to hear ANYTHING BAD about it. BUT! I also stuck my neck out and started posting on forums like this a long time ago and got exposure and feedback. A lot of what pushed me in the direction I'm working in now was all me.... but it sure helped to have people giving me insight as to what was working and what wasn't.
EDITED TO ADD- Some of my more challenging pieces that helped me grow as a maker were knives commisioned by guys that post here, or at least keep an eye on this forum. That, to me, means a lot.
Sometimes the replies I see in here seem arrogant and/or pointless... However, I would also like to point out that while you may get a more warm and fuzzy feeling from other makers, they're not the ones digging into their pocket book at the end of the day to determine whether or not your knife is really all that great or not.
We can slap each other on the back all day, but it's getting your knives into the hands of real users and/or collectors that get you established (and to a spot where you can buy more equipment).
An experienced, quality knife maker giving you an honest appraisal of your work (both good and bad points) is priceless (IF you listen). But one just saying you're awesome doesn't do you any more good than something like what Justin described that collector saying to him. And for the record, that guy was just being a dick. There's no call for that kind of behavior... simply based on an appreciation for a fellow human being. There are makers that will act that way too, and they are dicks, just like that collector.
Seems to me that maybe some of the guys that are posting all the replies could probably ease up a bit, especially on the subjective elements, and at the same time some of the makers could get a little more grit.
Notice I said COULD... not should
I've been hammered pretty damn hard online, in person at shows, and over the phone... but I didn't let it stop me. I'm sure I'll hear more flack as the years go by, but I can see where I'm going and I don't intend on letting anybody stop me
Just some food for thought.
ps- WTF does food for thought even mean??? I mean.... Really?
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- Feb 28, 2002
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Oh really? I guess we have very different notions of what constitutes realtive courtesy versus rudeness:
You must have been a star at charm school.
Y'now, Dobe, it's a bit easier to get away with drastic revisionist history when the events are a lttle more distantly placed in the past. Your condemnation of STeven for his comments completely ignores:
a) That his comments were directed at a particular individual;
b) That said individual had repeatedly provoked him before the lashing out that you found oh so objectionable;
c) That said individual acknowledged his provocative behavior; and
d) That said individual quite properly apologized for that behavior.
But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. You may now return to your version of reality.
Roger
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- 3,041
I know i've posted alot here, and this will be my last post on the matter...you can quote me on that.
I hear what lots of collectors are saying, honestly I do. Im not trying to be a troll and keep a big fight going, but trying to get to the bottom of things when Im realizing there simply may not be a bottom. 9 pages and I dont think anyone feels any different or has changed their opinions on anything, including myself, so now I feel badly that we appear to be right back at the beginning. Some people think this particular forum is a snobfest, some think its the cat's meow. Some people think rudeness is a badge of honor since its "honest", others think its just completly unnecessary and are shocked its encouraged. Some people are afraid to post here even as established makers, while others point out that if a 17 year old is doing it, there simply cannot be a problem and one doesn't exist. Some people are naturally defending their buddies, others are trying to speak up for the people who are too afriad to ruin their name in a flame war, as someone pointed out earlier.
To each his own, it would have probably been better to not have gotten involved at all...it's certainly been a learning experience for me, and has certainly opened my eyes up to both great discussion and some attitudes, mine included, that disappointed me.
I humbly apoligize if anyone found my constant comments annoying, lengthy, or over-the-top. I am a maker, but a part-time one at best. Its more of a passion for me than a business like running a grocery store, so if I appear passionate and should be "dispassionate" in all my responses, I will probably always fail on that account, and I am okay with that. I hope knifemaking never feels like running a grocery store to me, because itll be the last knife I make.
Its interesting to think about how people treat others and how they view themselves, myself included, and to try to understand so many varing opinions at once without feeling its a futile exercise, but its probably worth it.....
In the end, we are probably all discussing the 1% exceptions where 99% of posts are great, but all it takes is a few horrid comments and posts for a forum, individual, or group of consumers to turn others away, and I don't think thats what anyone wants.
I hope no one holds any hard feelings over anything I've said, but like others have said, maybe I just shouldn't care quite as much in the first place and things would be a lot easier.
"Kumbaya", or "ESAD MF"...whichever you prefer, consider myself saying it....
I hear what lots of collectors are saying, honestly I do. Im not trying to be a troll and keep a big fight going, but trying to get to the bottom of things when Im realizing there simply may not be a bottom. 9 pages and I dont think anyone feels any different or has changed their opinions on anything, including myself, so now I feel badly that we appear to be right back at the beginning. Some people think this particular forum is a snobfest, some think its the cat's meow. Some people think rudeness is a badge of honor since its "honest", others think its just completly unnecessary and are shocked its encouraged. Some people are afraid to post here even as established makers, while others point out that if a 17 year old is doing it, there simply cannot be a problem and one doesn't exist. Some people are naturally defending their buddies, others are trying to speak up for the people who are too afriad to ruin their name in a flame war, as someone pointed out earlier.
To each his own, it would have probably been better to not have gotten involved at all...it's certainly been a learning experience for me, and has certainly opened my eyes up to both great discussion and some attitudes, mine included, that disappointed me.
I humbly apoligize if anyone found my constant comments annoying, lengthy, or over-the-top. I am a maker, but a part-time one at best. Its more of a passion for me than a business like running a grocery store, so if I appear passionate and should be "dispassionate" in all my responses, I will probably always fail on that account, and I am okay with that. I hope knifemaking never feels like running a grocery store to me, because itll be the last knife I make.
Its interesting to think about how people treat others and how they view themselves, myself included, and to try to understand so many varing opinions at once without feeling its a futile exercise, but its probably worth it.....
In the end, we are probably all discussing the 1% exceptions where 99% of posts are great, but all it takes is a few horrid comments and posts for a forum, individual, or group of consumers to turn others away, and I don't think thats what anyone wants.
I hope no one holds any hard feelings over anything I've said, but like others have said, maybe I just shouldn't care quite as much in the first place and things would be a lot easier.
"Kumbaya", or "ESAD MF"...whichever you prefer, consider myself saying it....
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 3,148
Well that says it all and explains your perspective completely.
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- May 27, 2003
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- 456
Hot DANG Nick!!!!! Impressive!!! Last time we were here on these boards, you hardly said anything....and look at you now!! Waxing poetic and wordsmithing with the BEST OF THEM!!!! Every single post you have made in the recent threads of similar vein have been just spot on!! You are all growed up!!!
Phenomenal knifemaker AND eloquent communicator....thats a powerful combo Nick!!!
Kumbaya and ROCK ON DUDE!!!!!!!
Phenomenal knifemaker AND eloquent communicator....thats a powerful combo Nick!!!
Kumbaya and ROCK ON DUDE!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
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- 9,948
And you'll be forcibly moved back to Salem, MA and forced to stay on foot and in town all October if you do!
I love this forum! I love seeing the knives and hearing about what people do or don't like about them. I don't want a knife with a hamon, but man do I love staring at them. I don't want a Loveless-inspired knife from Lovett or Kressler, but I love staring at them. I love when I share my opinion with a maker and an established collector with more money tied up in resaleable knives offers and entirely opposite opinion plus a solution on how to do something better or at least less intrusive. I don't speak Snodybonics, but I love hearing it.
I think if people are looking for back-slapping, though, post in the gallery if you bought it or the Knife Maker's gallery if you made it. A lot less feathers would be ruffled and a lot less birds would be given that way.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2004
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- 650
Roger,
I find your remarks sarcastic, condescending, and rude. Perhaps we graduated from the same charm school
I quoted to illustrate an extreme example of what I object so strongly to in STeven's "style".
Since my comments were
a) directed at a particular individual
b) referring to a "style" that if find repeatedly objectionable
I don't see why you would concern yourself with them.
Maybe the dialogue has been heavily edited, but I don't see anything unusually provocative in this thread. Of course STeven referred to some offline conversation that must be at the root of it. "Said individual" apologized, good. Steven didn't, no surprise.
I think I'll take a vacation too. I don't get any enjoyment out of this sort of thing.
Dave
I find your remarks sarcastic, condescending, and rude. Perhaps we graduated from the same charm school
I quoted to illustrate an extreme example of what I object so strongly to in STeven's "style".
Since my comments were
a) directed at a particular individual
b) referring to a "style" that if find repeatedly objectionable
I don't see why you would concern yourself with them.
Maybe the dialogue has been heavily edited, but I don't see anything unusually provocative in this thread. Of course STeven referred to some offline conversation that must be at the root of it. "Said individual" apologized, good. Steven didn't, no surprise.
I think I'll take a vacation too. I don't get any enjoyment out of this sort of thing.
Dave