Critiquing~Is there really a problem?

Kohai999 said:
Mike,
My accountability and self-respect remain intact, thank you very much....and just who are you, again?;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I'm a nobody in the knife world, and fine with that. I'm just pointing out that you get really defensive sometimes, and lash out at people. This makes you look like an a-hole in a way that your excellent criticism of knives never will. IMO you should make an effort to keep it about knives. Just my opinion. Only you can choose what you'll do.

I apologize for singling you out, and I'll try not to do it again.

Peace.
 
Patapsco Mike said:
I'm a nobody in the knife world, and fine with that. I'm just pointing out that you get really defensive sometimes, and lash out at people.
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In this case, the lashing out has come after much poking by the party in question. I actually thought STeven showed pretty good restraint up to that point.

Roger
 
I admit to not having the time to read every post in this thread, and the others that relate to the topic. Hopefully, I can capture my thoughts on all of them in this post.

As a maker, I consider it a good thing when my work is posted in the forums. The forums are exposing my work to people who might not know about it.

If a customer posts a picture, and a glowing review, great! When a customer gets a new knife, they're obviously going to be excited about it and so the KUMBAYA comments are to be expected. I know I am always excited when I first get something I have wanted.

The initial post is generally followed by supporters, congratulating the owner on his purchase. I call this the "dude, you ROCK" phenomenon. Again, it's all good-Forumites supporting the post and expressing their positive support.

In rare cases, some concern is raised about the knife, or some comment is posted that can be interpreted negatively, even though it may not have been intended that way. For example "I bought one of his knives 3 years ago, but I didn't like xxx and so I sold it".

These are the posts that can cause a maker's hair to stand up. In these instances, the best action I can take is to use the opportunity to publicly demonstrate my customer service skills. Of course, I'm to blame if I send out a knife that isn't right. IMO, the possibility of having negative comments posted on the forums is a strong motivator to make sure that everything is 100% before it leaves the shop. If I deliver good work consistently, negative comments are not going to be a problem.

I do notice that often there is a grey area where opinion and fact become blurred. Comments on fit, finish and build quality are generally fine, because they are generally factual-If a grind is off, and someone points it out, well, I can't get upset with the poster for pointing that out. If the poster slams the knife because he doesn't like the style or the aesthetics, that's different, and should, IMO, be handled diplomatically. "I'm not a big fan of that style, but the knife looks very clean and well built" would be a fair post, as opposed to "Geez, what a butt ugly knife".

I think that every knife offers the opportunity for a fair review that points out good things and things that could be improved. I'm all for honest, critical reviews, especially of the owner takes the time to contact the maker about any issues before he posts about them.

Please let me know what you think about these comments!
 
RogerP said:
In this case, the lashing out has come after much poking by the party in question. I actually thought STeven showed pretty good restraint up to that point.

Roger
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I think this situation reflects well on the topic. Whatever you post, you invite criticism and critique. Makers invite critique when they post knives, and collectors invite critique when they post their opinions. While makers can have flaws revealed in their technique or design, collectors are equally accountable for the tone of their opinions and what they say, and should expect equal critique if others find what they say to be questionable in form, tact, or general attitude. Its a two way street and theres a reason certain people frequently come to the top of discussions like this, and its not because the world is out to get them.
 
thombrogan said:
They make me think your part of SE MA must be special if you and BladeandBarrel won't up and move North like Schott did.
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Thread Divert:
I like to shoot guns too much to live in that commie state anymore...pretty soon all MA residents will be disarmed like the UK and living in one big sheep pen run and watched over by robotic sentries while the criminals run wild outside the pen.
 
David Schott said:
I think this situation reflects well on the topic. Whatever you post, you invite criticism and critique. Makers invite critique when they post knives, and collectors invite critique when they post their opinions. While makers can have flaws revealed in their technique or design, collectors are equally accountable for the tone of their opinions and what they say, and should expect equal critique if others find what they say to be questionable in form, tact, or general attitude. Its a two way street and theres a reason certain people frequently come to the top of discussions like this, and its not because the world is out to get them.
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Do you have something specific that you wish to address, or are you sticking with generalizations?

I don't take issue with your generalizations, though I suspect I might well have a very different take on their application to specific circumstances.

Roger
 
David Schott said:
Its a two way street and theres a reason certain people frequently come to the top of discussions like this, and its not because the world is out to get them.
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Big difference between finding fault with the words used, and criticizing the critic, AND freely using personal insults...making it personal, in other words.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I actually read this entire thread..........

Its pretty simple. Makers need collectors. Collectors need makers. Be nice to each other. Learn from one another. Everybody gains.
Honesty can go hand in hand with polite, courtesy quite well.


Tanya
 
RogerP said:
Do you have something specific that you wish to address, or are you sticking with generalizations?

I don't take issue with your generalizations, though I suspect I might well have a very different take on their application to specific circumstances.

Roger
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I was referring specifically to the argument going on between Kohai and a few others and simply stating that other than overt personal attacks, which are never appropriate, the motivation behind many of the "digs" is found in their reaction to the way he carries himself. On some level, I feel that he invites such reactions and enjoys the attention of a good argument, but on other levels I feel that aspect to his online persona detracts from the truely valuable and insightful knowledge he has to share about custom knives. I'm not making any judgements because people can act however they want in the end, but I don't think its any surprise that the same name floats to the top of any post that refers to people getting bad vibes from collectors on BF. To put it bluntly, you can be the supreme world expert on anything but if the way you carry yourself turns people off, your captive audience will forever be smaller than it could be, and thats unfortunate when someone has a lot to offer.
 
David Schott said:
I was referring specifically to the argument going on between Kohai and a few others and simply stating that other than overt personal attacks, which are never appropriate, the motivation behind many of the "digs" is found in their reaction to the way he carries himself. On some level, I feel that he invites such reactions and enjoys the attention of a good argument, but on other levels I feel that aspect to his online persona detracts from the truely valuable and insightful knowledge he has to share about custom knives. I'm not making any judgements because people can act however they want in the end, but I don't think its any surprise that the same name floats to the top of any post that refers to people getting bad vibes from collectors on BF. To put it bluntly, you can be the supreme world expert on anything but if the way you carry yourself turns people off, your captive audience will forever be smaller than it could be, and thats unfortunate when someone has a lot to offer.
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Odd that you would not choose to address that directly to STeven, as Mike did.

I don't claim to have insight into the motivation behind those who want to take snide, smarmy pot-shots and STeven - you may be right, you may be wrong. I do think the forums are big enough to embrace a diverse range of characters - and STeven certainly is a character. But he is a genuine character. Personal insults aside, I am most certainly not in favor of imposed conformity to someone else's ideal of how forum members should "carry themselves". I enjoy STeven's posts and value his contributions. I don't always agree with him, but then there probably isn't anyone with whom I always agree.

Roger
 
David Schott said:
..... To put it bluntly, you can be the supreme world expert on anything but if the way you carry yourself turns people off, your captive audience will forever be smaller than it could be, and thats unfortunate when someone has a lot to offer.
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This is addressed to David, because it’s good like that.

Appreciate your observations…..I’m not trying to win hearts, change the world, or show a softer side.;)

If what I say makes sense, or shows a different side of the discussion, and adds to it, my mission was successful. :thumbup:

If I pissed off everyone or even the majority by being an ass, the mission was not successful. If I ruffle some feathers, or those with different/softer sensibilities than my own, I gave up worrying about that a long time ago.:)

I love a good argument….the attention is an unwelcome result of it…..most would agree that good stuff results from a vigorous, and healthy argument….my wife would disagree.:D

As far as bad vibes go….you simply cannot say something negative and not have bad vibes. I piss people off…sometimes it is intentional, but mostly it is not.

It’s about the knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
This is addressed to David, because it’s good like that.

Appreciate your observations…..I’m not trying to win hearts, change the world, or show a softer side.;)

If what I say makes sense, or shows a different side of the discussion, and adds to it, my mission was successful. :thumbup:

If I pissed off everyone or even the majority by being an ass, the mission was not successful. If I ruffle some feathers, or those with different/softer sensibilities than my own, I gave up worrying about that a long time ago.:)

I love a good argument….the attention is an unwelcome result of it…..most would agree that good stuff results from a vigorous, and healthy argument….my wife would disagree.:D

As far as bad vibes go….you simply cannot say something negative and not have bad vibes. I piss people off…sometimes it is intentional, but mostly it is not.

It’s about the knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Thanks for replying STeven. When I re-read my post and then your reply, I was glad mine wasn't taken the wrong way. I actually wholeheartedly hear everything you are saying in your response and for the record, do value your insight and offerings. I am glad that you acknowledge that you do ruffle feathers and also acknowledge that it doesn't bother you...some walk around the world wondering why drama always find them and others have the insight to at least admit that some of that may be an unwanted side effect to actions they are responsible for, which you note as well.

I'm all for a good argument as well, but usually stay away from them. I just wanted to chime in to acknowledge that there are certainly patterns to the complaints spread across these multiple threads on critique, and it doesn't take a PHD to see the same names coming up in multiple posts having to do with tact. If you have made a conscious choice to act a certain way and never change, that is perfectly fine with me and i'm glad you at least stand up for the persona you convey, whether people like it or not.

I can't speak for others, but just personally find that it detracts from what I take away from your posts. When otherwise I might be lapping the words off the screen when made by an educated and well versed collector, some of the ways you choose to convey your dislikes make me just move on to the next post and dismiss them rather than think about them. Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way, but its pretty clear from this thread and others that I am not alone...maybe in the minority, though, and that's okay too. After all, I've already learned that us makers have onion-paper thin skin, so that wouldn't surprise me. ;)
 
RogerP said:
Odd that you would not choose to address that directly to STeven, as Mike did.

Roger
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I answered you because you asked the question. I thought it was pretty clear that I was referring to STeven since I directly quoted you talking about STeven showing restraint. My bad. I've since addressed STeven directly in response to his post.

I never said peple need to follow imposed conformity, but simply said that those who choose to communicate in an edgy and sometimes condescending way need to be ready to lie in the beds they make, just as makers posting photos in a public forum need to expect people to post negative comments or opinions. You had replied that STeven's lashing out came in response to multiple people poking at him, and I was saying that maybe there is a possibility that, well....he asked for it.
 
RJ Martin said:
Comments on fit, finish and build quality are generally fine, because they are generally factual-If a grind is off, and someone points it out, well, I can't get upset with the poster for pointing that out. If the poster slams the knife because he doesn't like the style or the aesthetics, that's different, and should, IMO, be handled diplomatically.
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Well said.

Andre

www.andrevanheerden.com
 
RJ Martin said:
Critque away!
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Easy for you to say Mr. Martin! Great designs, superbly executed by a gentleman at a very fair price! :thumbup:

P

orig.jpg
 
David Schott said:
You had replied that STeven's lashing out came in response to multiple people poking at him, and I was saying that maybe there is a possibility that, well....he asked for it.
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No, I was saying that the individual against whom he lashed out had done had done some considerable poking, hence my comment that STeven had shown restraint up to that point. You are welcome to your opnion that "he asked for it." I don't happen to share that view.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
No, I was saying that the individual against whom he lashed out had done had done some considerable poking, hence my comment that STeven had shown restraint up to that point. You are welcome to your opnion that "he asked for it." I don't happen to share that view.

Roger
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You are correct. The individual had done considerable poking and indeed STeven had shown some restraint before lashing out. I, however, am still a firm believer that how people treat you and respond to you is most often a direct reflection of how you treat them specifically or more often, how people perceive your treatment of others as a whole.

If you spew negative thoughts with no internal filter towards other people's reception of those comments and people percieve that as rude, they will search for times when they can return the favor, or best it. Its human nature much like laughing extra hard when the schoolyard bully falls in a mudpuddle.

We can agree to disagree, no problem there.
 
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