CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

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how many of us have used cheap, "junky," spare tools/knives from our trunks or garages for doing what they weren't made to do without any failures.

One man's junk...

Someone mentioned military knives earlier in this thread; and, it is worth mentioning that most military knives, like the M2 Ka Bar and Jet Pilot Survival, were designed to be relatively soft. The RC on these would be in the low 50s, perhaps even high 40s, that makes them very tough. Overstress them and they simply bend. Then again they don't hold an edge for very long, although they were easy to sharpen. It is a tradeoff you make when you go for better edge retention; the blades are harder to sharpen and more brittle.

The Cold Steel RS failed when it was overstressed. Perhaps there was a manufacturing error, a misjudgement on the part of the user, or a mispercieved environmental or pre-existing condition; but, if it failed we can at least be sure that it was loaded beyond its limit.

failed tools happen; the notion that you can overcome this by going with a different knife, or better tool is dangerous. Every tool has a limit and we have to get away from the notion of unbrekable knives and unsinkable ships. If you find yourself in a challenging situation, it may be best to go lightly on your tools; the adrenaline is going to be running high, and broken tools can often lead to broken bodies. Never try to do in one stroke, what you can just as easily and far more safely accomplish with two.

n2s
 
I would say that this was design finally catching up with the Recon Scout. Finally was able to check the Cold Steel site (I have to pick which websites I want to see carefully, looking forward to getting home to my cable modem). The RS is 5/16" thick, but that stress riser looks like bad news. Sure, it could have been an imperfection in the knife, but I think a proper curve where the blade transitions to the hidden tang would have prevented the failure.

Also, does anyone know about the hardness for the RS? It is differentially hardened and also what RC? Sort of a side note, because I think the design is flawed.

I definitely agree that splitting wood is easier with a knife and a baton than with a small hatchet. And, if a knife maker, especially for a "survival knife" considers it abuse, I tend to look for another knife maker.

I have a Busse HOFSH on order. I look forward to stopping by in a year and writing a review about how it performs. Hopefully well, because I would like to find something superior to my faithful Gerber BMF.
 
At the price of the RS, I would be surprised to learn those knives are differentially hardened, but as pointed out n2s, even such knife (like a Camp Tramp) has a limit :p

Anyhow, I would be interested to know how CS customer service performs with this issue.

Xavier.
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Next I notice the knot in the log,,and understand that from the beginning there was no hope that the knife could have ever split such a log in that area,,,,
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Sure it will, you just have to hit it hard enough. I can upload lots of pictures of knots chisel cut right in half during splitting, the knots are at times 2+ cm thick. Wood is not small, up to the length of the blade of the knife, 6-7". I usually baton with a stick, but a hammer isn't a problem for a solid carbon steel blade and I pick the worse possible ways when doing evaluations so its right through the large knots. Frozen wood by the way splits a *LOT* easier .


-Cliff
 
Nutnfancy:

What would I use a 7" knife for? Anything but THAT, basically, LOL!!

I wouldn't say I was a knife worshipper that doesn't want to use his knife at all. I simply know the limits of a tool. It's not just about preserving the tool, but plain efficiency. Again, use the right tool for the right job. Saves time, saves energy, saves lives. That's survival.

Like I've said before, why use a knife when an axe will do? Several people on this thread concur with me on this. One poster here said that his son who's an active-duty soldier in Iraq considers what the knife went through as abuse. Are you saying he doesn't know about survival? Think about that.

Now, if you so happen to have one of these knives that can go through concrete, lead pipes, and really thick logs, then that's FANTASTIC for you. Baton it through the friggin Redwoods for all I care! LOL!! I think that's great. But realize that these concrete bustin', wonder knives are "wonders" because they're the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Think about that.

If I had a Busse, sure I'd put it through that. I PAID for it to go through that. Based on its reputation, I'd EXPECT it to go through that.

You expected this of a CS: a company that doesn't necessarily have a consistent reputation. I wouldn't expect it to go through that log. Maybe a TM, but not an RS.

I understand your frustration: you recommended a knife to a trainee that failed on the field. You feel it reflects badly on you. I understand that.

But realize that you expected something of a tool from a company whose reputation is suspect (use the search engine; you'll find there's a "monthly" I hate CS thread). And a 7" blade to boot. I don't think you knew your tools as well as you thought you did.
 
It wasn't abuse of the blade. And I don't know why you wouldn't want a carbon steel blade for use in the winter snow. Granted, it isn't going to be nice and shiney forever and a little care in wiping it off, more than off sets the ability to withstand the rigors of camping. That is my thought and a good friend of mine swears by carbon steel with a high nickel content ( 1 1/2 to 2 percent) for extreme cold weather applications. I tend to agree.
Yes, it would upset me to brag on something and then have it fail almost as soon as the words have been spoken. That goes for about anything you can think of.
Cliff;
Glad to see your still contributing to the discussions. As some one who lives where it is cold a lot, you probably have had a few that broke due to the cold and can put a little light on the subject. :)
 
It will be interesting to see how CS handles this, please let us know. I prefer the BK7, but usually 5/16" beats 3/16". I'll have to baton some maple with a couple different blades one of these years. I'll see if I can break a BK7; if I do I won't complain to Becker ;) I'll just buy another once I learn the limits.
 
4 Ranges said:
Like I've said before, why use a knife when an axe will do?
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Because you didn't have an axe.

[But realize that these concrete bustin', wonder knives are "wonders" because they're the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Think about that.
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Jim Aston has done the above with puukkos on knots. The edge will turn if you hit a hard knot, but then again puukkos are ground from 1/8" stock and the edge angles are ~10 degrees per side. Once you exceed 15 degrees per side the edge should pretty much ignore knots.

Ray, lots of them, then again you only need one which doesn't to redefine expectations. Mine have changed significantly as I use more knives.

-Cliff
 
French Kiss said:
At the price of the RS, I would be surprised to learn those knives are differentially hardened, but as pointed out n2s, even such knife (like a Camp Tramp) has a limit :p

Anyhow, I would be interested to know how CS customer service performs with this issue.

Xavier.
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So would I. I havn't heard the best things about their customer service, especially in a situation like this (if you are honest about how it broke), they might very well declare it abuse.
 
Cliff:

It's still the wrong tool. If he didn't bring an axe, he can't blame a knife for not being an axe. Plain and simple.
 
We believe the Recon Scout® is the strongest, toughest 7 1/2” combat knife in the world.
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With that belief, CS should be shocked SHOCKED that this Recon Scout failed. Maybe it's time to take the RS back to the drawing board and rethink those stress risers... or maybe it was just a bad example.
 
4 Ranges said:
Cliff:

It's still the wrong tool. If he didn't bring an axe, he can't blame a knife for not being an axe. Plain and simple.
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:rolleyes:

> Batoning a knife -- the "right" knife to be sure - through wood is a standard survival/bushcraft technique. It is covered in books by recognized survival and bushcraft experts - civilian and military.

> Proper technique can be learned. Teaching proper batoning technique pretty much requires batoning.

> Sometimes, the only dry wood, as pointed out above, is inside a peice of wet wood. Sometimes the only "small" wood must be harvested from larger pieces.

> Sometimes one must make do with less then the optimal tool for the task. That situation is likely in a survival situation. That situation is deliberately sought out in "bushcraft." To be prepared, one ought to learn the proper technique for using likely-available tools to perform essential tasks.

> If I had only one knife in a survival situation, I would use it as gently as possible and only when necessary.
 
The "right" knife for sure. As I've been saying, if you happen to have a knife that can do it (be it 2 inches or 20 inches), and you KNOW it can do it, that's great! But, as you yourself said...

"If I had only one knife in a survival situation, I would use it as gently as possible and only when necessary."

Exactly.
 
4 Ranges said:
It's still the wrong tool.
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No, lots of knives can do it. As I noted, some really inexpensive ones too. Some can also be more efficient than an axe on smaller grade wood, because the axe won't split it with one chop and you can baton a knife thrugh faster than reverse smacking an axe repatidly, which can dislodge the wood and even when it doesn't can send it flying. On larger wood, a maul of course is the choice, but out of efficiency not durability.

Note that quality axes are made out of the same steel as quality working knives of that type. GB for example uses 5160, same as found in those types of knives, even at the same hardness levels. I have even seen Ontario knives which could do the above (with a hammer not a log), and they are essentially the lowest grade production out there (excluding the $1.99 made in taiwan). Of course it takes like half a dozen Ontario's to get one that does it and doesn't break.

If the knife was stainless it would be a different story. Most of the high alloy stainless blades tend to not react well to impacts especially when cold, so yeah it could be argued to be abusive in general for them, especially with a hammer. But for carbon steels, no. Of course if you are a really big guy and your hammer is an 4 lbs maul, well ok, you can probably push past the impact toughness. However I have seen my brother wail into them with heavy framing hammers with no problem, and he works in construction so can swing a hammer pretty hard.

-Cliff
 
Cliff:

that's great that you've done it, and others as well.

But, like I said, I still don't consider it the right tool for the job. Axe or khukri (specialized choppers) makes more sense to me, if only because you don't risk BREAKING the axe or khukri when trying to do this job.

Sure there are knives that can do it while being batoned, but you still risk breaking it. If you're testing the knife to see how far it can go, then go ahead and risk it. But do you want to risk it if you were in a survival situation? Risk breaking your only edged-tool? I wouldn't.
 
It would seem to me that if you had been doing the same thing to the same brand and size knife for several years and they didn't break, I would have to believe that the knife was defective. Especially if the company had made claims that would lead you to believe that the knife would not break when used in such a manner.
Bad Knife
It happens and when it does, we try to learn why and improve on it to eliminate one more problem. One day, when we have eliminated all the problems, we will have the untimate knife (for that particular application). :)
 
4 Ranges, this knife (CS RS) was a "combat survival" knife that was 5/16th of an inch thick. It should be able to be batoned through a log and not break. It astounds me how people have be brainwashed into thinking that knives should be able to do these things. Because of people like you who do not demand that their knive perform in a survival type situation, knife companied like CS can start calling this type of use "abuse" and refuse to replace the knife.

Nutn' I hope you avoid CS from now on, and support knife companies that back up all the claims they make, like SRKW and Busse.
 
Heya NutnFancy-
Not much I can say that hasn't already been said. Just wanted to say I'm glad the knife broke in training rather than during a real problem. If CS doesn't back up thier hype then I guess you can chalk it up to experience, and if it were me, avoid CS products in the future. One thing for sure in todays cutlery market, there aint no lack of options available to us!

Other than that, welcome to the forums and I look forward to hearin' more from ya'!
 
Dr. Thor:

Since I don't demand higher QC of my knives, companies like CS can call these knives "tough survival" knives when they actually can't perform the task? LOL!!

So now it's MY fault that the knife broke? Please.

I have an HI Khuk that'll chop ANYTHING. If I need to chop wood, that's what I go for. Why waste my time batoning a 7" knife into a huge log when my khuk will split it in 3 minutes? If I want to split logs, I'm going for the khuk. I don't care if there are other knives out there that can split it with the aid of a log. I already have the right tool for the job.

My 7" OVB is for chopping branches, cutting rope, cutting cardboard, slicing bread, cutting thick cloth...smaller jobs.

I said it once, and I'll say it again: right tool for the right job. That's the essence of survival.
 
4 Ranges said:
But do you want to risk it if you were in a survival situation? Risk breaking your only edged-tool? I wouldn't.
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As opposed to just sitting there and freeing to death, yeah. Plus I would never carry untested gear in such a situation, so its not a risk. In extreme cold, damage can set in very quickly thus establishing a fire can be critical. being able to split large pieces of wood can be necessary as the smaller stuff can be soaked or frozen right through.

But again, those knives you mention are made of the same steel and in general as knives get longer the stresses get much higher. A 5" made is many times over tougher and more resilant than a 9" blade out of the same steel and thickness. As for time, it doesn't take me a minute to split large wood, unless there is a a huge knot is just a few hits, even with knots its basically how fast can you swing a stick/hammer a few times.

Plus as noted it can be faster on multiple splits as you have greater control over the splitting and the pieces don't fly apart as much so you can pick them up and split them again faster. But to section a thick piece of wood, knives can be slower, so yeah if you had a splitting axe on hand of course use it.

But again this is like using a SAK saw vs a full length bow saw. Yeah I'd rather use a bow saw, but I always carry my SAK, don't always travel every where I go with a 4' bow saw and splitting axe.

Back to this knife, I would be very surprised if CS didn't say this was abusive. They have a history of "this is what we did, however you do it and it voids the warrenty".


-Cliff
 
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