Cts-xhp

Gator97 said:
I don't think quoting Crucible or Phil Wilson will make any difference. Vassilii already expressed his firm belief that Knife industry, Steel makers, Custom makers and you(along with other testers) for that matter, are all involved in one giant conspiracy to flood the market with "overstock underperforming steels"...
He's the only one "revealing secrets of real steel performance".
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I would like to take this opportunity to retract my earlier posts in defense of nozh2002, A.K.A. Vassili.

It's my nature to stick up for people who I think are getting shoved around or dumped on unfairly. It can be a fault, as illustrated in my earlier posts in this thread.

I read "a lot" of Vassili's posts from his profile before taking up for him & trying to get members to lay off of him.

Yesterday, while doing research on some steel types via Google, I ran into some of Vassili's posts and they weren't pretty. I read him telling off Sal (which I didn't believe existed) and pretty much being rude and dismissive of other members without provocation. (keywords: without provocation)

There were several threads in which he behaved this way.....so, I was wrong about him and he can go sit on a lit can of sterno for all I care. His making an *ss out of himself, ended up with me making one out of myself - live and learn I guess.

:foot: :D
 
nozh2002 said:
I am not talking about poor performer priced low. I do not see any problem here. But there are quite a few examples of steel which performs pretty poor but with premium price.
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Hi Vassili

From my perspective, it's not always about edge retention with the introduction of new steels. Kershaw has been first to the market on many "premium" steels over the years, and in many cases it was just to give enthusiasts a choice. None of these steels are poor performers, each has characteristics that can shine, but their best qualities are not always edge retention. This isn't bad, and to make it that is slightly short sighted. Most knife folks love choices, love that there are new steels to explore, and can't wait for the next one. It's a part of our hobby that we can really enjoy.

We shouldn't condemn mills/steels and/or manufacturers over this, we should really applaud them for their efforts in bringing something new to discover and study. If a particular steel doesn't work for you, and isn't the "best" for your specific interest or application, there are plenty of others out there to go play with, and plenty more to come.
 
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cziv said:
I would like to take this opportunity to retract my earlier posts in defense of nozh2002, A.K.A. Vassili.

It's my nature to stick up for people who I think are getting shoved around or dumped on unfairly. It can be a fault, as illustrated in my earlier posts in this thread.
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I understand where you're coming from. You thought everybody was bullying nozh, but in fact he's the bully. It reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Nelson was "Ha-ha"ing at everybody, until someone forced him to walk down the street sucking his thumb with his pants around his ankles, while everybody said "ha-ha" at him (couldn't find a youtube clip). Every bit of annoyance, anger, derision, and dislike directed at nozh is brought upon him by himself and himself alone.


Thomas W said:
Hi Vassili

From my perspective, it's not always about edge retention with the introduction of new steels. Kershaw has been first to the market on many "premium" steels over the years, and in many cases it was just to give enthusiasts a choice. None of these steels are poor performers, each has characteristics that can shine, but their best qualities are not always edge retention. This isn't bad, and to make it that is slightly short sighted. Most knife folks love choices, love that there are new steels to explore, and can't wait for the next one. It's a part of our hobby that we can really enjoy.

We shouldn't condemn mills/steels and/or manufacturers over this, we should really applaud them for their efforts in bringing something new to discover and study. If a particular steel doesn't work for you, and isn't the "best" for your specific interest or application, there are plenty of others out there to go play with, and plenty more to come.
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Exactly. nozh thinks that "best" is described only as having the best edge retention. Characteristics such as stain resistance and ease of sharpening are irrelevant to him. What he seems to repeatedly fail to grasp is that "best" for him does not mean the best for others. I personally like a knife that has pretty good edge retention but isn't a PITA to sharpen without breaking out the Edge Pro each time for a reprofiling. S30V is pretty good in this regard, as is 154CM/ATS-34. My favorite is VG-10. It holds its edge well enough, and I can get it very sharp again with minimal effort. VG-10, S30V, and 154CM/ATS-34 aren't "cheap" steels, so it's usually a "premium" knife that they're found in. And I don't feel cheated that I'm spending that much money and not getting a supersteel like M390, CTX-XHP, S90V, or ZDP-189.

I'm just glad there's companies like Spyderco and Kershaw that give us so many options.
 
Crucible Timeline said:
2006 – Developed & marketed CPM® 154CM for improved toughness and ease of manufacturing
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This is cracking me up. I just got finished reading a thread where half the folks were mixing up CPM-154 and 154CM, and the other half were yelling at them to use the right name. To put a cherry on top, the Crucible site had to go and use/mix both names to indicate the newer, powdered version. Awesome.
 
Planterz said:
I personally like a knife that has pretty good edge retention but isn't a PITA to sharpen without breaking out the Edge Pro each time for a reprofiling. S30V is pretty good in this regard, as is 154CM/ATS-34. My favorite is VG-10. It holds its edge well enough, and I can get it very sharp again with minimal effort.
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In fact, isn't this the purpose of the S30V that Chris Reeves uses in the Sebenza? "Sebenza" means "work" in Zulu. CRK hardens their S30V slightly softer than most other manufacturers because sharpenability is part of the intent and design of the knife. Sure they could use M390 or ELMAX or S125V, but that would be contrary to the original purpose of the knife.
 
Planterz said:
...CRK hardens their S30V slightly softer than most other manufacturers because sharpenability is part of the intent and design of the knife.
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I doubt "sharpenability" was built into "design". Chisel and scandi grinds, both are much easier to sharpen than the hollow ground blades, and thumbstuds don't help with sharpening either. However, it might be a consideration or side effect for choosing lower hardness along with other reasons.
 
Out of curiosity, what industries, other than cutlery, use steels like S90V, CPM154, etc, and for what applications? They're described by Crucible as "stainless tool steels", but somehow I doubt they're used in machining over high speed steels and tungsten carbides. Just wondering...
 
Gator97 said:
I doubt "sharpenability" was built into "design". Chisel and scandi grinds, both are much easier to sharpen than the hollow ground blades, and thumbstuds don't help with sharpening either. However, it might be a consideration or side effect for choosing lower hardness along with other reasons.
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The blade came first, steel choice came second. Or rather 3rd, in a manner of speaking, since ATS-34 and BG-42 preceded S30V. I meant "sharpenability" in the sense of the overall usefulness of the knife. Yes, a chisel grind might be easier to sharpen, but it's far less usable as a working blade than a standard V grind. Even their serrations are designed with symmetry in mind.
 
Planterz said:
Out of curiosity, what industries, other than cutlery, use steels like S90V, CPM154, etc, and for what applications? They're described by Crucible as "stainless tool steels", but somehow I doubt they're used in machining over high speed steels and tungsten carbides. Just wondering...
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Steels like S60V, S90V, ELMAX, M390 where developed for the plastics industry.
 
Ankerson said:
Steels like S60V, S90V, ELMAX, M390 where developed for the plastics industry.
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That makes sense. I remember seeing a "How It's Made" where miles upon miles of plastic sheeting (I forget what for) was being cut, and it was hell on the blades.
 
Planterz said:
That makes sense. I remember seeing a "How It's Made" where miles upon miles of plastic sheeting (I forget what for) was being cut, and it was hell on the blades.
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It's not just that, they are used for molds too. :)
 
Gator97 said:
I doubt "sharpenability" was built into "design". Chisel and scandi grinds, both are much easier to sharpen than the hollow ground blades, and thumbstuds don't help with sharpening either. However, it might be a consideration or side effect for choosing lower hardness along with other reasons.
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Cost, and probably to have a more consistent hardness range without warping the blade as often.

The thumbstuds do prevent me from sharpening below 15-20 degrees per side, but I find that the lower angle is unnecessary due to the high hollow grind giving me a thinner cutting edge, which seems like a reasonable combination with the relatively low hardness.

I do accept that not everybody has DMT Benchstones or power tools for sharpening, so one could say that based on that, S30V is truly an "upgrade" for the average knife user as opposed to the frustrating-as-hell to sharpen S90V and S60V.
 
Planterz said:
Out of curiosity, what industries, other than cutlery, use steels like S90V, CPM154, etc, and for what applications? They're described by Crucible as "stainless tool steels", but somehow I doubt they're used in machining over high speed steels and tungsten carbides. Just wondering...
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Most industrial extrusion machines (including plastics, but also a great many food items) use a blade to cut the extruded material. Usually the blade makes a cut against a flat surface, and often has to cut through hot and frequently dirty materials--sand, dirt, and metal particulates are in the path of the blade. High wear resistance steels are needed for such applications, especially since the blades are often considered disposable, rather than re-usable. It's better to have a machine cut for the entire day, rather than have to spend 15-20 minutes every 3-4 hours to replace the blade.
 
cziv said:
It's my nature to stick up for people who I think are getting shoved around or dumped on unfairly.
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That's a very good attribute to have, I seriously doubt anyone will hold it against you at all! :thumbup: Thanks for taking the time to look into it more closely and you saw what some were referring to...

While perhaps they aren't "super" steels, every so often, I "rediscover" 1095 and AUS 8A. I like them both for different reasons, still solid steels that are fun to work with. I know I shouldn't be able to get a stainless steel as sharp as non-stainless, I've got a couple AUS 8A knives that are really easy to get to an unreal level of sharpness. You can hear the electrons screaming as I whittle them out of their little orbits.... :D
 
sodak said:
That's a very good attribute to have, I seriously doubt anyone will hold it against you at all! :thumbup: Thanks for taking the time to look into it more closely and you saw what some were referring to...

While perhaps they aren't "super" steels, every so often, I "rediscover" 1095 and AUS 8A. I like them both for different reasons, still solid steels that are fun to work with. I know I shouldn't be able to get a stainless steel as sharp as non-stainless, I've got a couple AUS 8A knives that are really easy to get to an unreal level of sharpness. You can hear the electrons screaming as I whittle them out of their little orbits.... :D
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AUS-8 is very fine grained so it will get extremely sharp. :thumbup:
 
CPMS90V and CPMS60V were developed for the plastics industry - to be used where the developement of new plastics created more abrasive and corrosive environments. 154CM was developed for the aerospace industry - bearings. CPMS30V was developed specifically for knives - hunters and folders. CPM154(partical metallurgy version of 154CM) was produced specifically for the knife industry - a more user friendly knife steel(more user friendly than CPMS30V) for the custom knife makers. CPMS30V displaced/replaced CPMS60V because it was new, it performed well and we were stupid enough to price it $2.00/lb. lower than CPMS60V, ultimately killing a great grade -CPMS60V.
 
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