Custom Knifemaker Lee Williams' Anti-"Flipper" (Immediate Reseller) Stance

Pomsbz said:
OK so how about setting up knife auctions instead of lotteries at shows (which is what you're suggesting at the end I think)? Similar to gun or car auctions which can be bid on via the internet, phone or in person. You can't have cold feet if you've placed your bid. It's legally binding. The knives will be sold for the price they can actually reach which is good for the maker, they will go directly to people who want the knife and it would automatically cut out the middle man (flipper) as the max price the knife will achieve in the short term has already been reached.
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Legally binding doesn't mean the buyer can't make trouble later, but I see your point, and it is valid. If they were big enough to have the traffic, and several sellers, I think it could be made to work. Some may prefer a closed bid system, which can also work in many cases, especially over say a weekend show. This all relies on a reputable proxy, and buy-in from all parties, which isn't impossible. I think its just another factor that the industry as a whole has to come to terms with, and its a slow moving beast.
 
The person who paid double really wanted the knife, and got it. The maker sounds miffed that he undervalued his product.
 
Pomsbz said:
As opposed to now?



OK so how about setting up knife auctions instead of lotteries at shows (which is what you're suggesting at the end I think)? Similar to gun or car auctions which can be bid on via the internet, phone or in person. You can't have cold feet if you've placed your bid. It's legally binding. The knives will be sold for the price they can actually reach which is good for the maker, they will go directly to people who want the knife and it would automatically cut out the middle man (flipper) as the max price the knife will achieve in the short term has already been reached.
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Yes, because with a lottery I still have a chance at getting it for the normal price
 
Richard S. said:
The person who paid double really wanted the knife, and got it. The maker sounds miffed that he undervalued his product.
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To be fair, I don’t think that’s it.

The makers I’ve heard discuss this topic want to receive a price that is fair, based on the time, effort, care, creativity and experience that went into the knife. And they want the people who buy their knives to appreciate their work for its own sake.

But that’s not how the world works. What actually drives price is demand. When greed and acquisitiveness come into play, all bets are off.

Considering oneself to be an “artist” in such a world is bound to result in cognitive dissonance.

If your knives are bringing inflated prices on the secondary market you’re either going to have to learn to live with it or change what *you’re* doing. Railing at buyers to change *their* behavior is urinating into the wind.
 
Frailer said:
Railing at buyers to change *their* behavior is urinating into the wind.
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"You're all just pissing in the wind.
You don't know it, but you are.
And there ain't nothing like a friend,
who can tell you you're just pissing in the the wind"
-Neil Young (Ambulance Blues)
 
unwisefool said:
Yes, because with a lottery I still have a chance at getting it for the normal price
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I had understood that the way the lotteries were being run the chances of a fair purchase were diminishing fast? I don't live in this world, I've been a professional artist but in a very different world where there are very few who aren't trying to hit into the very highest brackets with their work despite the bluster. :) The idea of making art pieces for the appreciation of collectors at a 'fair' price point would kill practically all other types of art because the only successful way of doing so is mass production. If there was a captive market of said appreciation then why not sell to it directly? As I said, not a world I know or understand. Or can afford for that matter. :D
 
Frailer said:
To be fair, I don’t think that’s it.

The makers I’ve heard discuss this topic want to receive a price that is fair, based on the time, effort, care, creativity and experience that went into the knife. And they want the people who buy their knives to appreciate their work for its own sake.

But that’s not how the world works. What actually drives price is demand. When greed and acquisitiveness come into play, all bets are off.

Considering oneself to be an “artist” in such a world is bound to result in cognitive dissonance.

If your knives are bringing inflated prices on the secondary market you’re either going to have to learn to live with it or change what *you’re* doing. Railing at buyers to change *their* behavior is urinating into the wind.
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I think mostly they're miffed that speculating is impacting the collector market, and that guy did have a lot of gall to flip it right there at the table, seconds after his lottery win.
 
Someone always finds a way to game a situation and make a quick profit. These custom knife craftsmen/artists should stop doing whatever causes them angst and diminishes their satisfaction of practicing their craft. Some people are willing to pay to cut to the front of the line and others are willing to accommodate them to double their money. Nothing new.

Draw the winner after the show closes and mail the knife to him if they have to have a lottery.
 
Frailer said:
To be fair, I don’t think that’s it.

The makers I’ve heard discuss this topic want to receive a price that is fair, based on the time, effort, care, creativity and experience that went into the knife. And they want the people who buy their knives to appreciate their work for its own sake.

But that’s not how the world works. What actually drives price is demand. When greed and acquisitiveness come into play, all bets are off.

Considering oneself to be an “artist” in such a world is bound to result in cognitive dissonance.

If your knives are bringing inflated prices on the secondary market you’re either going to have to learn to live with it or change what *you’re* doing. Railing at buyers to change *their* behavior is urinating into the wind.
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Fair means nothing to me when it comes to luxury items.

I don’t mind flippers because I’ve been able to acquire things I want through them. Same for auctions. I love them because the man with the biggest bank account gets what he wants.

Lotteries, fair share allotment, etc are annoying.

There is a happy medium where a man gets paid what his work is valued at by the market, and it discourages people trying to “flip” an item.

Look at sharps rifles. There are several people who have several orders in the cue for the specific purpose of selling those spots to impatient customers. Those people buying those spots are happy to pay a premium to cut down on the wait.
 
dirc said:
One way for smiths who have this 'problem' of over-inflated resale 'flippers' - very simple:
Keep selling them at the 'regular' price point non-stop until demand is satisfied.
IE - work at keeping the supply in tune with demand; they sell more knives, and flippers would learn a lesson.
(even if it turned into a future-order-list ... that pressure would lower the instant flippers profit margins and they'd be discouraged)

Sadly, custom hand makers can't really do this in a practical way, time is time, and it's not practical to 'hire help' to make it happen.
...
The fact that spyderco (& others) COULD EASILY do this for 'sprint' runs and they don't, really turns me off of trying to buy any of their sprint runs, which really turned out to be a blessing in a way, forcing me to expand my horizons. I found much better value from other vendors/mfgs as a result.
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And you know spyderco has the ability to make however many sprint run knives they want how exactly?

I remember a time when spyderco was having difficulty producing enough regular pm2s. Assuming and thus laying blame on a company's production capacity is a dangerous game. You simply don't know their business better than them.
 
Frailer said:
Complaining on social media is utterly pointless.
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I wanted to quote this because I very much disagree with this. If you watch things like Hulu's documentary on Fyre Festival they mention "Influencers" people who are paid to talk on Social Media so Social Media is a powerful tool. I may not personally put too much stock into Social Media but much of the US and perhaps the world do or at least from my understanding much of a younger generation do. I would say a recognized and respected maker could be considered an influencer in our niche market and for them to speak out against the practice can potentially bring some change to the consumer mindset and to that makers peers to act in a manner to curb the practice.
 
I dont like flippers, but if you give something away or sell it, it is now the owners decision. The only way to know the person is.t a flipper is to know who you give it to. Sounds l like the problem.is capitalism. No? Can one be anti flipper and pro capitalist?
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
I understand the argument from both sides. The maker wants to decide on his/her prices and serve their customers fairly. The flipper sees an opportunity to capitalize on the maker's failure to price the knife at the apex of what the market will bear.

I don't think either standpoint is particularly immoral or unfair, as long as there was no prior agreement that the knife wouldn't be flipped. The same thing happens to almost all limited, high demand product.

I think the best way to circumvent he issue is to auction them all. They sell for whatever they sell for. Seems like it would be difficult to flip at that point, when you have to outbid all the other interested collectors to get it.
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A valid point.
 
danbot said:
No.
It's about having respect for the makers and for the hobby and not treating it like a commodity.
It's about having more love for the hobby and fellow hobbyists than for money.
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I think people should have more love for just about everything than money. And im not disagreeing with you, just pointing out it goes against capitalism which people seem to be very protective of. That may have to do with why it is so hard to combat flippers.
 
BenchCo Spydermade said:
So this is actually just a political issue where we want socialism to allow us preferred access to knives cuz we love em?

Im a knaf socialist!
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Throwing politics, socialism, and purposeful broken English into a very contentious issue helps nothing.

This is a hobby. It is supposed to be enjoyable. Flippers hurt that.

As to the definition of a flipper, it's like porn. I know it when I see it, difficult to make a black and white definition.

If you are having trouble telling what a flipper is, you are part of the problem.
 
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