Custom Knives – Where in Five Years?

Well...Like I said, I don't know much. I also don't have a disposable income, as I'm 4 years into owning my own business, (a bicycle shop) but like everyone else here I think about knives all the time and thoroughly enjoy them in every regard.
I don't qualify as a collector, although I do have a 'collection', some of which are hand made and some made from my own designs. I have a feeling that there are lots of guys like me out there- don't yet have much money, who enjoy a fine knife, but also like to use them, (I happen to build and maintain mountain bike trails with mine).
There is a bewildering array of options available to people like me- the self 'educated'- and because my history is not steeped in the knife world/industry, I go with my gut when it comes to consuming stuff.
Almost all the knives I own are 'practical' in my life. I have the good fortune as well, of having the opportunity to converse by phone with a couple of makers in BC, one with 25+ years as a professional, and the other a young man dedicated to making a living making knives with his first 1000 made newly under his belt.
If I had some disposable income, I'd readily part with it in order to procure handmade knives that I love, that were made by someone who loved making them.
In five years, I'll be forty, and I likely will have money to spend on knives just for the sake of owning them and/or as an investment. When that time comes, I won't be giving my money to some arrogant prick, (no matter how renowned their work is) or flash in the pan fashion-oriented maker, instead I will form a relationship of sorts with a knifemaker or a few who I like personally and loyally give my business to them. That's the way I roll.
But there are lots of guys like me, kids of baby boomers, well educated, with new families, at the cusp of actually having a little extra money to spend on well thought out indulgences.
It's up to you guys- the photographers, writers, knifemakers and collectors who need to put your heads together and figure out how to promote custom knives to me and my kind, instead of relying on the corporations to sell the idea of knives.
I'm not personally motivated or encouraged by the marketing of WAR stuff. And unfortunately it's this image that the general public sees most of the time. Not handmade knife shows or circus throwing acts.
It's this marketing that makes me feel like maybe I'm weird for liking knives so much. Instead, I feel that people should respect the fact that I know a little something about knives, that I know how to sharpen them, how to throw them, how to use one every day for a multitude of things.
But, we fight that rolling of the eyes, the 'oh this guy's a psycho, he just used a knife to open his mail'. It's this attitude that the custom knife world needs to confront and try to change. If that happens in five years- the transformation of knife from weapon to tool-, you will all be well taken care of, but so will the rest of us.
Some knives in this forum seem to me on the same level as Beanie Babies, and I expect their longevity will be similar. That's not the kind of collecting I'll ever be interested in, it's too much work. The fact is I don't like people enough to constantly engage in trading stuff with them. It's bad enough my everyday job is helping people buy things. Repairing bikes is what keeps me sane. I wonder if making knives would make me saner?
I need collecting to be for me, not status, and if it becomes a social outlet, it will be one with close friends and interesting dialogue, and not always about knives I would hope.
For me, getting into collecting handmade knives will be a long term commitment, and once I go there, I'll stay there. This discussion is just one step in that process. Hope you don't mind my going off there.
 
I know that a number of the guys in here are pretty serious collectors. But i am wondering about the user market. What little I have seen as far as pricing goes leads me to believe that the production knife market is going in two directions. On one hand, I see the discount dealers selling knives from companies like SOG for what seems like less than what I paid for a Tigershark when they first came out in the late 80's. Ditto for knife lines like the RAT knives. I'm not sure if these companies is producing overseas now or what, but it seems to me that the buyer who doesn't have a lot of cash to spend can get a better affordable factory knife than he could have 15 years ago. But it is the other market swing that interests me. The prices on the higher end factory knives seem to have gone up quite a bit in the same period. Dicounters are selling the Cold Steel San Mai knives for prices that are getting into the same range as what Les Robertson told me that I should ask for a good sized bowie at this stage in my adventure (assuming it looked good...lol) The prices on knives like Strider are even higher and some knives from folks like Blackjack, Benchmade and Bark River are moving up too. I don't know what Busse knives sell for, but they can't be cheap and folks were lined up 5 deep at the Busse booth at Blade. I have also been seeing write ups and ads (which aren't inexpensive, mind you, so they must be working)in magazines like Tactical Knives about makers who seem to be doing well selling sturdy old fashioned user knives that are decidely non-tactical looking. Where do you see this segment of the market going in the next five years?
edit. I aamreading the Smokey Mountain Knife Works catalog and there is a Buck Gen 5 skinner with snakewood scales selling for $220 which is more than i would get for one of my hunters.
 
It's quite possible that there are some others like myself that, due to the internet, are becoming more informed about knife performance. I constantly look for bits of information concerning steel, heat treat, quench, differential temper, edge geometry, adhesives, and anything else that will give a clue to expected performance. Frankly, I don't find much on makers' websites. If I don't find it, I'm not inclined to make contact and pursue it further.

I appreciate the method photos (like some do), all of the performance specs (like some do), and testing photos like very few do. The testimonials are nice but usually lacking in hard information. How about precision, comfort, and security while processing "x" head of big game by an outfitter without even a touch-up? Bending, twisting, and handle-tang integrity? I haven't found it yet. Test criteria cutting rope and cardboard is just boring to the extreme.

I realize some don't need to go to the effort because they are already back logged, but that doesn't help renew the customer base for customs. I mentioned this in a different thread some time ago and the response was it mattered very little because I could get the information directly from the maker. I still believe it is a big factor in elevating customs above production just as much as the appearance.

Expanding or at least continuous renewal of the collector base is just as important to current collectors as to makers and dealers if they ever intend to sell. I'll never be an "insider" but I sure know what causes me to trade money for a knife when I already have way too many plus other hobbies that compete for my disposable income. :) Regards, ss.
 
Straitshot,
I will be adding some features to my website to address some of the issues that you mentioned. Performance and construction are both integral to a good knife. Good points in your posts.
Lin
 
Michael Lovett said:
I like Knives. All kinds of knives. I started out forging. So did Bob. I am in no way putting forging down. So don't even try to get that old argument started. It's old and tired.

We are knife makers plain and simple. It seems that it is people like you. Some of the more arrogant collectors that just love to keep this old argument going. We for the most part could care Less.
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Riiiiight. You throw down "all forged knives look alike" - and repeat it at every opportunity, but I'M the one digging up tired old arguments?

Dude, puhleeeeze.

Michael Lovett said:
Anointed heir apparent? Man, that was rude, and way out of line. I have never said any such thing. I up until now have never said a bad word about you. But you are both insulting me, and being incredibly shallow.
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That is rich. Do you even read what you write? Let me help you out:

Michael Lovett said:
=

Bob and I have become good Friends. Jim and I have become like brothers. We end up finishing each others sentences all the time. We can see in our minds what the other is trying to explain. It is uncanny! Of course Jim is originally from just 12 miles up the road. This probably helps. Bob is getting older. As we all will. Jim had a medical problem for a while. He is fine now. In fact he is doing great. But Bob after spending a life time perfecting the Loveless Knives was worried that the Loveless Knives, made the way he and Jim make them was coming to an end. Bob upon examining my knives. The first ones I carried out to the Loveless shop, ask how many Loveless Knives I had handled. You should have seen the look on his face when I told him that I Had never handled a real Loveless. He was shocked. How In the hell did you get so close he ask? All I could tell him was that this is the way I felt a knife shod feel. He looked at Jim and said "Finally-Someone understands. Why we do the things we do with our knives!) With that he ask Jim to take me to the patterns and help me all he could. It has been that way ever since.


When Buster died, It hi many of us hard. (Buster was very good to me). It hit Bob really hard. He ask, Mike are you really serious about carrying on the Loveless Tradition? It shocked me to my core. The Master himself asking me. Just another maker from somewhere in Texas this. All I could was "Yes Sir, I will do every thing within my power to make the Lovett-Loveless Connection Knives the way I know you and Jim would want them. When George Herron Passed away, He ask again. And Again I answered the same.

With this he said to call him anytime I needed help, and ask Jim to give me all the help and guidance he can. And they have both been true to their word. I couldn't possibly ask for better Mentors. I can't tell you haw thankful and honored I am. To be chosen by the Master.

So I ask you all. Why are so many emulating Loveless. Because he is Loveless. But be honest. If you were in my shoes. Would you turn down Bob Loveless with his request to carry on th loveless Tradition? Would you turn down Both Bob and Jim's tutoring? Bob said from the start that there would be a few who wouldn't like what we were doing. But as Bob so eloquently put it. It's none of their business,(unless they are buying one)"And it's what we are going to do".

Jim told me just recently that as far as he is concerned, Mike Lovett is the only one out there that could walk into the Loveless shop, by himself, turn on the lights, and make Loveless Knives. Now I ask you guy's? How would that make you feel. Now this is no reflection on Steve Johnson. Steve is a TOP Maker in his own right. But Steve mostly does his own thing now. And we are good friends.

Stop making Loveless designs? Not hardly. Besides. I'm up to about 50 original Loveless patters here in the shop now.

i can tell you this, If for any reason something happened, and Bob or Jim need me, I'll be on the plane to Riverside the next day! Mike
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You don't exactly have to squint to read between those lines. Get over yourself already.

Michael Lovett said:
As to the Required by whom? Just one example is that the test knife has to be flat or convex ground. A lot of customers, believe it or not, love a hollow ground blade.
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Well, taken at its highest, that would explain a "required look" for precisely 10 knives total out of a maker's lifetime production. Unless you are suggesting that the ABS somehow monitors and enforces a certain look for all the knives produced by all its members? That would be a hot-breaking story indeed. This is yet another absurdity from you - and one which, not coincidentally, tends to cast in a negative light makers other than yourself who make knives other than the type you make.


Roger
 
fisk said:
I think the custom knives will grow in popularity and yes we are bringing in more makers than collectors but it is our own fault. As makers teaching someone new to make knives how much time is taken to teach them how to bring in new collectors? Most time the new guys just start selling to the people that is already collecting. That is also one of the reason why some people work in other peoples styles, it is easier cause the base is already there.
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straitshot said:
Expanding or at least continuous renewal of the collector base is just as important to current collectors as to makers and dealers if they ever intend to sell.
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Both very good points as maintaining existing and creating new collectors that will put the money down for customs knives is what keeps the industry moving forward.

And makers need to realize its more important to train customers to buy their knives than to train makers to compete against.
 
E' difficult to train a collector!! The culture on the knife must obtain it alone, spend the moneies also for the books and the history of the knife. How many collectors recognize a knife constructed well from one constructed badly?
 
flaviopknife said:
E' difficult to train a collector!! The culture on the knife must obtain it alone, spend the moneies also for the books and the history of the knife. How many collectors recognize a knife constructed well from one constructed badly?
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If most of the collectors on this forum have their way, all collectors would recognize the difference as its necessary in keeping makers at the top of their game. ;)

We are ALL for collector and maker education on this forum, but you are correct as the collector needs to take on the responsibility to educate himself.
If he does not the market will give him a brutal education and his bank account will suffer as a result of it. :eek:
 
I am not known in the USA. This year they have been from USA(ECCKS and KNIFEMAKER GUID SHOW)chi has acquired has not acquired a name (not known)ha watched the knife and has chosen for like is made.
 
Roger, I don't know why you are being so emotional. This post ask for our observations, and I gave mine. You are in no way blighted to agree with it. This does not mean that it requires a personal attack. The example I gave is just one of several that could be given. To jump all over it is just as ridiculous as saying that all different stock removal knives are fantasy pieces. And yes, I do think some one needs to gen over themselves.


AS to reading between the lines. There has been many questions regarding the Loveless-Connection Knives. Just seemed like as good a time to set the record straight as any. The reason I don't appreciate you claiming that I am calling myself the Heir Apparent is in th first place I have never said any such thing. You read into my post what you wanted to. As you so often do. Not what was said.

There was an article in Blade a few months back, where the writer declared John Young the Heir Apparent to Bob Loveless. While discussing this with bob, he ask me, "Who is John Young"? This was no disrespect to John Young what so ever. Its just that Bob doesn't keep up all that much with what other makers are doing. John is a student of Steve Johnson. And makes his knives in Steve's Style, using Mostly Steve's Methods. Although We all do share ideas. It to some extent hurt Jim's feelings. And I don't blame him. He has been making Loveless Knives for over 25 years. And still is. He does this very well. Day in, and Day out. Bob has decided long ago that Jim will pick up the reigns when he is gone. This is as it should be. Jim has more than earned it. Jim is the inheritor, or Heir Apparent. However you want to put it. It does not matter in the least whether you. I or anyone else likes it or not. This is the way it is. Personally, I find it very fitting. Jim is teaching me the Loveless way for the future. There is no reason why all their years of experience should be lost. I too will pass on what I have learned.

One last thing. Although Jim does not post on the forums, he does read them. How do you think your statement makes him feel? Once again he has been ignored, and swept aside for no other reason than you to vent your anger on me. Your comments are not hurting me. But they can and will hurt others.


This thread is supposed to be about where we think the market will be in 5 years. Not what we think of others. Mike
 
It is time for a reality check. :foot:

I think it is a very safe bet that Michael Lovett either does NOT read what he writes, or he simply chooses to ignore what he has written. His words speak for themselves and could not be much clearer, imho.
 
I would suggest a retraction or edit is in order for your last post, as many of the collectors you addressed either support you with orders and/or speak very highly of you throughout the community.
 
Your are correct Kevin. And I do get over heated. But I am not talking about all collectors. I too am a collector. As are many makers. That is how many of us became makers. But I am seeing a great deal of arrogance here and at the shows. From Dealers, Collectors, and Makers. Everyone has a personal agenda. I didn't get into knives for it to be a competition.

With this I offer my appologies. For both relaying what I hear at shows. And for having opinions of my own.

For this reason, Like so many makers before me, I will no longer have an opinion here on the forums, other than to try and help new makers in the makers section. Thanks to all. Mike Lovett
 
Michael Lovett said:
Your are correct Kevin. And I do get over heated. But I am not talking about all collectors. I too am a collector. As are many makers. That is how many of us became makers. But I am seeing a great deal of arrogance here and at the shows. From Dealers, Collectors, and Makers. Everyone has a personal agenda. I didn't get into knives for it to be a competition.

With this I offer my appologies. For both relaying what I hear at shows. And for having opinions of my own.

For this reason, Like so many makers before me, I will no longer have an opinion here on the forums, other than to try and help new makerin the makers section. Thanks to all. Mike Lovett
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Thank you Mike.
Perhaps we can all just move on (Roger; Mike) and put this incident behind us.
Mike, your participation on this Forum benefits you, collectors, makers, dealers and Loveless knives.

Perhaps you could reconsider before withdrawing your support.
 
Mike, your opinions here, are the problem. One needs to learn when to express them and when not to. This is a public forum.

Your opinions on forged blades, the ABS, flat ground and hand finished blades are rubbing most folks here, the wrong way.

You said the 'forge verses stock removal' is a dead issue' well, you seem to have strong opinions on this subject.

I remember a thread in the makers section, where I expressed a personal dislike for ATS-34. This opinion of mine upset a few guys, including yourself. I sincerely apologized and let it be known, this was just my personal opinion. I learned from this and think a bit before posting now.

You're a damn good maker and I really like your work but find myself scratching my head after reading most of your posts.
 
Don Hanson III said:
Mike, You're a damn good maker and I really like your work.
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Everyone deserves to be forgiven when forgiveness is sought. Mike apologized and Now it is time to move on.

This is from just a collector who loves knives and the folks that make them. Don congrats on all the awards at the show. You too, are one fine maker.

James
 
James Todd said:
Everyone deserves to be forgiven when forgiveness is sought. Mike apologized and Now it is time to move on.

This is from just a collector who loves knives and the folks that make them. Don congrats on all the awards at the show. You too, are one fine maker.

James
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Well, James, IMO, that is a pile of happy horsecrap.:grumpy:

Forgiveness is not just automatically granted when it is asked for. You don't punch a guy in the head, ask forgiveness, and then do it again, right after that.

I like Lovett, and unlike many here, have spoken with him on the phone, and met him, personally....look forward to doing so again. He is a different cat, and moves to his own music. Makes a heck of a knife......got a real hot temper, though, and it gets him into trouble.

Mike can use the Forums in so many ways, but has got to learn (just like Don said) how to play nice with the other kids in the sandbox. Mike....it is not that hard.....no one is picking on you.....stop posting when you are pissed off, it is that simple.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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