Cutting out the middle man

needler420 said:
Again you keep going on about the crooked bad people in China. Every region and profession has crooked bad people. No one should be doing business with crooked or bad people hence the term "bad people"

The part that keeps flying over your head is China's government does not recognize copyright infringement laws. Their government allows those crooks to operate and manufacture clones by not regulating it.
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Where do you get your information?

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/201803/01/WS5a97a426a3106e7dcc13eec2.html

https://www.google.ch/search?q=chin....69i57j0l2.12029j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
 
The original question posed by the OP (Kevin I enjoy your vids..ty you for the work and time) is posed as "why I would buy a Kershaw or CRKT or even budget Spyderco when I can get better quality often better materials from Chinese companies". "is I sometimes feel some USA companies are taking advantage of their name to sell crap and that frustrates me" "I knowthat it will not stop Chinese culture lacks the concept of intellectual property or individualism at allwhich we value so highly in the west so were you to try and appeal morally to a Chinese factory owner for example they wouldn't understand what you were on about."

I think the answer is simple and also not simple. Business 101 is to make a profit. All business regardless of country of manufacture is interested in inputs that must be lower than gain. Nothing too extraordinary in this, but the caveat is the consumers, demand, and availability of market. What does the buyer want? China makes some extremely high quality products and everything in between. If its better..than it's better. No harm, no foul...competition will need to adjust to to demand.

Your pocketbook will decide on how Spyderco, CRKT, Kershaw, etc. steers their business models to remain competitive. They seem to be doing ok and sales of their product reflects that.

We all understand counterfeiting is not cool and it's a good idea to not support it by purchasing if avoidable.
 
needler420 said:
Again you keep going on about the crooked bad people in China. Every region and profession has crooked bad people. No one should be doing business with crooked or bad people hence the term "bad people"

The part that keeps flying over your head is China's government does not recognize copyright infringement laws. Their government allows those crooks to operate and manufacture clones by not regulating it.
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You obviously do not know how patents and copyrights work. US patents do not work outside US borders. In order for your patent to be enforced in another country, you need to apply for one in that country. Now there are treaties in place that allow the ease of applying in treaty member countries And China is in fact party to this treaty. And if you apply for such a patent in China, it is completely enforced. Same is true of Foreign products in America. Their patent is not protected in America unless they hold a US patent for it. So if a foreign knife maker does not apply for a US patent for a particular knife, any US factory can clone it and there isn't anything US law can do about it.

So this notion that you have that China allows the counterfeit of US products is utterly and completely false. If you are an American Company holding a China patent for your product, you are afforded every protection. Now I'm not saying that there aren't cases that fall through the cracks. You can't catch em all
 
MolokaiRider said:
The original question posed by the OP (Kevin I enjoy your vids..ty you for the work and time) is posed as "why I would buy a Kershaw or CRKT or even budget Spyderco when I can get better quality often better materials from Chinese companies". "is I sometimes feel some USA companies are taking advantage of their name to sell crap and that frustrates me" "I knowthat it will not stop Chinese culture lacks the concept of intellectual property or individualism at allwhich we value so highly in the west so were you to try and appeal morally to a Chinese factory owner for example they wouldn't understand what you were on about."

I think the answer is simple and also not simple. Business 101 is to make a profit. All business regardless of country of manufacture is interested in inputs that must be lower than gain. Nothing too extraordinary in this, but the caveat is the consumers, demand, and availability of market. What does the buyer want? China makes some extremely high quality products and everything in between. If its better..than it's better. No harm, no foul...competition will need to adjust to to demand.

Your pocketbook will decide on how Spyderco, CRKT, Kershaw, etc. steers their business models to remain competitive. They seem to be doing ok and sales of their product reflects that.

We all understand counterfeiting is not cool and it's a good idea to not support it by purchasing if avoidable.
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Hey thanks for weighing in I should maybe have pointed out that this is more of a recent thing it seems quality control is dropping and Kershaw especially is in a race to the bottom. If your Kershaw having knives made overseas why not take advantage of what the manufacturing is capable of and deliver the great designs (which they do have) with the same quality as what we are seeing from bestech or realsteel or ruike. The same could kind of be said for CRKT, I have really looked at the ruger windage I love the design but 60-70 for 8cr13mov is nuts.
 
clearkevin said:
Hey thanks for weighing in I should maybe have pointed out that this is more of a recent thing it seems quality control is dropping and Kershaw especially is in a race to the bottom. If your Kershaw having knives made overseas why not take advantage of what the manufacturing is capable of and deliver the great designs (which they do have) with the same quality as what we are seeing from bestech or realsteel or ruike. The same could kind of be said for CRKT, I have really looked at the ruger windage I love the design but 60-70 for 8cr13mov is nuts.
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Kevin, have you looked at some of the 2018 Chinese Kershaws? The few that I've handled have some of the best quality and F/F that I've seen for a long time. I think 2017 was a bad year but this year it looks like KAI may have stepped up their game a bit.
 
clearkevin said:
Hey thanks for weighing in I should maybe have pointed out that this is more of a recent thing it seems quality control is dropping and Kershaw especially is in a race to the bottom. If your Kershaw having knives made overseas why not take advantage of what the manufacturing is capable of and deliver the great designs (which they do have) with the same quality as what we are seeing from bestech or realsteel or ruike. The same could kind of be said for CRKT, I have really looked at the ruger windage I love the design but 60-70 for 8cr13mov is nuts.
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Those knives aren't for us. Those are clamshell package knives meant for retail outlets and the casual knife buyer. They're pure cash grabs.

I'm with you in that I'd like to see high-end, but inexpensive knives like Bestech makes from Kershaw, but that'd be like Ford charging the same price for a Raptor as they do for a basic fleet F-150.
 
Hackenslash said:
Kevin, have you looked at some of the 2018 Chinese Kershaws? The few that I've handled have some of the best quality and F/F that I've seen for a long time. I think 2017 was a bad year but this year it looks like KAI may have stepped up their game a bit.
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I haven't messed with any yet but there are a few on my list so hope to lay hands on a few
 
I am gonna make the same statement about this as I have made on YT.
Nobody should hate on Chinese knives as long they are not clones/counterfeits. If anything we should support original Chinese designs to show them there is no need for clones/stealing designs if their own designs sell well enough/as well. Is it gonna wipe out clones? No. But every company that drops a single fake from their production is a good thing.
 
Just curious to see if we’re all using terminology in the same way. For me, I’ve always defined terms in the following manner:

  • Counterfeiting - This occurs when Company X makes a copy (either exact or of lesser quality) of a product made by Company Y. Company X puts Company Y’s name and logo on the product instead of their own, and tries to pass it off as a legitimate Company Y product.
  • Cloning - This occurs when Company X produces a product that is very similar and/or exactly like a product made by Company Y. However, in this case, unlike counterfeiting, Company X puts their own name and logo on the product.
Counterfeiting steals the product design and identity of the original producer. Cloning steals only the design (and is only stealing if the design is copyright protected).

Is this how everyone in this thread is defining these terms? If not, there’s even less likelihood of reaching common ground. I get the impression some of you are using these two terms interchangeably. They are quite different.
 
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Astronaut FX said:
Just curious to see if we’re all using terminology in the same way. For me, I’ve always defined terms in the following manner:

  • Counterfeiting - This occurs when Company X makes a copy (either exact or of lesser quality) of a product made by Company Y. Company X puts Company Y’s name and logo on the product instead of their own, and tries to pass it off as a legitimate Company Y product.
  • Cloning - This occurs when Company X produces a product that is very similar and/or exactly like a product made by Company Y. However, in this case, unlike counterfeiting, Company X puts their own name and logo on the product.
Counterfeiting steals the product design and identity of the original producer. Cloning steals only the design (and is only stealing if the design is copyright protected).

Is this how everyone in this thread is defining these terms? If not, there’s even less likelihood of reaching common ground.
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Don't matter. It's all wrong. Clone, homage, Counterfeit etc.
 
Mo2 said:
Don't matter. It's all wrong. Clone, homage, Counterfeit etc.
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Wrong has different connotations, morally vs legallly. If a product has no copyright protections, there is no legal barrier to what I described as cloning.

As an example outside the world of knives, Fender was the original producer of the Stratocaster electric guitar. If I produce a copy, and put their logo on it, that is counterfeiting, and illegal. But as there is no copyright on key elements of the Stratocaster design, there have been dozens of companies (including American companies) making Stratocaster copies (usually referred to as S-style) for decades, some even eclipsing Fender’s quality. There are some who have a moral issue with this, and that’s certainly their prerogative, but it’s perfectly legal.
 
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Astronaut FX said:
Wrong has different connotations, morally vs legallly. If a product has no copyright protections, there is no legal barrier to what I described as cloning.

As an example outside the world of knives, Fender was the original producer of the Stratocaster electric guitar. If I produce a copy, and put their logo on it, that is counterfeiting, and illegal. But as there is no copyright on key elements of the Stratocaster design, there have been dozens of companies making Stratocaster copies (usually referred to as S-style) for decades, some even eclipsing Fender’s quality. There are some who have a moral issue with this, and that’s certainly their prerogative, but it’s perfectly legal.
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No

http://knifenews.com/knife-gripes-episode-36-forgery/
 
Mo2 said:
No

http://knifenews.com/knife-gripes-episode-36-forgery/
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I can respect your stance. Where does it end though? Where’s your line in the sand. Is there equal disdain for Benchmade and others who have borrowed the SpyderHole? The most recent Buck of the month looked an awful lot like a strange Kershaw/Spyderco conglomeration. Do we have equal disdain for EVERY SINGLE KNIFE MAKER who has borrowed the liner lock feature?

Knives are relatively simple devices. It gets a bit tough for every single knife manufactured to be completely unique from all others previously manufactured. How close to an original design is ok before we cry foul?

Do we have equal disdain for all feature borrowers, or do we reserve that disdain only for those from areas outside of the lines of the map of our home region? If the latter, then perhaps our view is motivated by something else altogether. Each of us must answer that question internally.

All that being said, I do truly respect and appreciate a truly unique design, in pretty much any product. Too much borrowing seems lazy and opportunistic. But it isn’t always illegal. And defining “too much” can be difficult, especially if we lead with emotion versus critical thinking.
 
Astronaut FX said:
Wrong has different connotations, morally vs legallly. If a product has no copyright protections, there is no legal barrier to what I described as cloning.

As an example outside the world of knives, Fender was the original producer of the Stratocaster electric guitar. If I produce a copy, and put their logo on it, that is counterfeiting, and illegal. But as there is no copyright on key elements of the Stratocaster design, there have been dozens of companies (including American companies) making Stratocaster copies (usually referred to as S-style) for decades, some even eclipsing Fender’s quality. There are some who have a moral issue with this, and that’s certainly their prerogative, but it’s perfectly legal.
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There are lots of things that are perfectly legal, but its still a crap thing to do. I want the "Real McCoy" and won't settle for less. As far as I'm concerned it's still theft whether there is a foreign copyright or not. If I want a CRK but can't afford it, why buy a clone? I still wouldn't have a CRK! There would be no pride of ownership and I would have knowingly given my money to thieves.
 
Astronaut FX said:
Wrong has different connotations, morally vs legallly. If a product has no copyright protections, there is no legal barrier to what I described as cloning.
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But there IS a moral one. If you are OK with ignoring that barrier when it comes to knives and the people who make them, that is your call.

As I said earlier, it always baffles me that people supposedly passionate enough about knives and the people who create them to join a knife discussion site ignore that barrier.

What're you gonna do.
 
marcinek said:
But there IS a moral one. If you are OK with ignoring that barrier when it comes to knives and the people who make them, that is your call.

As I said earlier, it always baffles me that people supposedly passionate enough about knives and the people who create them to join a knife discussion site ignore that barrier.

What're you gonna do.
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I think you kind of hit on something here, I don't pay any attention to fake sunglasses or purses or whatever else is out there not that I buy a lot of purses but if I did I wouldn't even know what was a clone and what wasn't the passion for the hobby is what makes the difference. If I was gonna buy a purse it would have to have a lot of knife pockets.
 
In general I am trying to find the best value for my money. For most purchases I will gladly pay that little extra to get a product from a local dealer because I understand the additional value I get in terms of service and support with the purchasing process. I equate it to a kind of insurance that ensures I'll end up with a quality example of the product and also get to support a local business. That, to me, is a middleman.

As to the more general debate of overseas manufacturing, that gets a little less clear-cut. I am still generally looking for the best overall quality I can get for my money. I'll also consider aspects like the warranty process (more so now since the Canada/CBSA debacle) and the ethics of supporting foreign companies (I would ultimately like to support the community I live in), but in the end I want a quality product.
 
Astronaut FX said:
Just curious to see if we’re all using terminology in the same way. For me, I’ve always defined terms in the following manner:

  • Counterfeiting - This occurs when Company X makes a copy (either exact or of lesser quality) of a product made by Company Y. Company X puts Company Y’s name and logo on the product instead of their own, and tries to pass it off as a legitimate Company Y product.
  • Cloning - This occurs when Company X produces a product that is very similar and/or exactly like a product made by Company Y. However, in this case, unlike counterfeiting, Company X puts their own name and logo on the product.
Counterfeiting steals the product design and identity of the original producer. Cloning steals only the design (and is only stealing if the design is copyright protected).

Is this how everyone in this thread is defining these terms? If not, there’s even less likelihood of reaching common ground. I get the impression some of you are using these two terms interchangeably. They are quite different.
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How would a bit of misused jargon prevent us from reaching common ground on the fact that IP theft is wrong?

A Spydiehole is a component. An innovation. The laws regarding things like that are logically laid out. They provide time for the inventor to capitalize on their invention and then the protection expires allowing for further innovation and to prevent a long standing monopoly.

The design of a knife is a different thing. Difficult for the law to protect, but easy to spot as a consumer. Someone can use a Spydiehole freely(though I'd rather they get Sal's permission), but when you put it on a knife shaped exactly like a PM2 we have a problem.
 
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