Cutting out the middle man

MolokaiRider said:
600 billion in loss to IP theft annually according to 2017 report from the Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property. Majority of this is led by China.

This is from the US alone and is also hard to factor number of jobs dissolved.

I have zero problem purchasing products made overseas, as long as theft is not an issue. Clones are stolen design/process. So I don’t buy them. Original designs are fine with me. That said, how can you be sure the companies who produce their own design don’t also produce clones as well?


Edit...sorry for the politics...I will delete if I’m violating policy
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You can’t be. And most the companiesnthat oroduce their own design are indeed also producing clones. Or outsourcing to companies that do produce clones. That is what I was talking about earlier. For example, and this was just a rumour so I am not sure if itnis true, I have heard Reate outsources some of their knives to Samier. Samier produces clones, so hypothetically they use that profit to turn around and make clones. Or here is an example I know is true. Real Steel knives produces original designs, but is owned by SanRenMu who produces several clones in their line up.

Or CKF knives who has their parts made by Kevin John who used to be a prolific cloner. Counterfeiting is so ingrained in the chinese knife market that even companies who realize they can make more producing high quality original designs still end up supporting the clone market one way or another.

The truth is that even if for whatever reason China stopped producing all clones then a country like India or Malaysia would jump in to fill the gap. As long as there is a demand and people will buy them they will be supplied by someone. There is huge demand for clones in the European and Russian market.
 
Lapedog said:
You can’t be. And most the companiesnthat oroduce their own design are indeed also producing clones. Or outsourcing to companies that do produce clones. That is what I was talking about earlier. For example, and this was just a rumour so I am not sure if itnis true, I have heard Reate outsources some of their knives to Samier. Samier produces clones, so hypothetically they use that profit to turn around and make clones. Or here is an example I know is true. Real Steel knives produces original designs, but is owned by SanRenMu who produces several clones in their line up.

Or CKF knives who has their parts made by Kevin John who used to be a prolific cloner. Counterfeiting is so ingrained in the chinese knife market that even companies who realize they can make more producing high quality original designs still end up supporting the clone market one way or another.

The truth is that even if for whatever reason China stopped producing all clones then a country like India or Malaysia would jump in to fill the gap. As long as there is a demand and people will buy them they will be supplied by someone. There is huge demand for clones in the European and Russian market.
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It is also a cultural thing in China. They had a whole mall there that only sold counterfeight products like they were proud of that s***.
 
needler420 said:
What I find funny is how many people are against clones. While I do totally understand its intellectual property theft of a patent.

At the same time you think all those American knife companies that you all want to support patriotically care about keeping Jobs in America, then why would they outsource. $$$$$$.
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So even though it's theft, it's ok if you don't like the company's practices? Stealing is ok if the victim is a jerk?
 
That's because Hong Kong is the true wild west of a free market capitalist. Companies that start there go under the same day. Tech companies go there just to operate outside of US jurisdiction.

You say copyright infringement?

In New Zealand online copyright infringement is not criminal under their copyright Act per Kim dotcom case. He's actually wanted by the FBI in the united states for extradition.

what's law of the land in one land isn't the law on another land.

Cloning a US patent in Hong Kong is not something their government will regulate and you won't make trade agreements with them.

It's why I say you want to get upset at clones and ethics, get you're priorities straight and be upset with all the American companies outsourcing to China...

You're against clones but ok with buying Chinese Spyderco, Cold steel, Schrade, Case, SOG, Buck all American companies who now operate in China where they have no laws regulating copyright infringement and no showing in wanting to make trade agreements to regulate those laws.. The pot calling the kettle black. The same company that doesn't want you to buy a clone literally will move operation to Hong Kong for revenue where it's the culprit of clones.

Spyderco is suing ebay based on counterfeit clones. Yet you moved operation to the very place that does the clones.
 
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kniferelatedname said:
Heh, or his definition of middleman. A company that designs, distributes, warranties, and finances the manufacturing of a knife is not a middleman just because they outsourced the manufacturing.
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I don’t think he meant middleman in the literal sense. Obviously an American company having designs produced in China is not a middle man.
 
Lapedog said:
I don’t think he meant middleman in the literal sense. Obviously an American company having designs produced in China is not a middle man.
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If the question was why buy a Spyderco or Kershaw or CRKT when there are Chinese companies to buy from, the answer seems obvious. Because all knives from China aren't the same. If you like what Spyderco or Kershaw is offering, that's why you'd buy it. Buying some different design with different ergos, etc hardly seems like cutting out the middleman.
 
kniferelatedname said:
If the question was why buy a Spyderco or Kershaw or CRKT when there are Chinese companies to buy from, the answer seems obvious. Because all knives from China aren't the same. If you like what Spyderco or Kershaw is offering, that's why you'd buy it. Buying some different design with different ergos, etc hardly seems like cutting out the middleman.
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He is using the term middleman figuratively.
 
needler420 said:
Spyderco is suing ebay based on counterfeit clones. Yet you moved operation to the very place that does the clones.
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That is specious.
Spyderco is a US company that expanded its business by out sourcing production to 4 other countries, whilst maintaining and growing its US operation/production. Overseas Spyderco production, including in China, is done by a few select production facilities, exactly how Spyderco wants it done, to cater to a wider customer base than it's possible for them to do in their home plant.
At least that's my understanding of it. I welcome any informed correction.

China and its populace is vast. You make it sound like it's a small place with one factory.
 
Spyderco's Persistance is a very good knife in that price range and the Taiwan made Gayle Bradley is an excellent value as is the Delica line made in Japan.Any warranty issues are covered same as the USA made knives but when you're buying knives directly from an overseas manufacturer you just can't get the service that comes with an American company that utilizes authorized dealer networks.It's nice to save a buck but often times we read about those scenarios in the good, bad & ugly sub forum when things go wrong.:eek:
 
emjay4248 said:
Hey Kevin I watch your channel all the time and you have been a deciding factor for me on many of my knives including many reputable Chinese knives such as real steel and Steel Will. I have also bought many American manufactured knives on your recommendation too. I am not sure of your opinion of using cheapies as beaters or clones as tryout knives but I have bought a few clones to try out some of your recommendations and have bought most of the real ones. Keep the vids coming
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As a rule I use the knives I own but for sure I baby some of the more expensive ones a bit more, I don't buy clones but to keep with the theme of the thread yeah I would probably use a twosun as more of a beater than a kizer or zt
 
halden.doerge said:
It's kinda hard to be sure what he intended when he starts a thread on a topic he knows will be controversial and then just disappears. Come on, C clearkevin , if the discussion is important enough to start, surely its important enough for you to engage in!
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Fire training tied me up for most of the afternoon yesterday so I couldn't get back to the conversation
 
Okay two points I want to make, the first is I sometimes feel some USA companies are taking advantage of their name to sell crap and that frustrates me, more so when a Chinese company often one that does OEM work for American companies will use better materials and have better fit and finish while offering a better price. The second thing that got me thinking was the fact that other youtubers who I've watched for years have recently started buying and reviewing knives from twosun or ch and probably a few other companies that I'm forgetting that you would never see on their channels before. I have always been a value seeker and when I feel I can get a highly useful blade with great features at a good price I appreciate it.
 
One more thing, while the copies and clones make me more than a little angry (I can't seem to help but put myself in a makers shoes who works hard then sees a $20 rip off of his or her work), I know that it will not stop Chinese culture lacks the concept of intellectual property or individualism at all which we value so highly in the west so were you to try and appeal morally to a Chinese factory owner for example they wouldn't understand what you were on about.
 
clearkevin said:
What are your thoughts on the numerous budget Chinese folders, I find myself asking why I would buy a Kershaw or CRKT or even budget Spyderco when I can get better quality often better materials from Chinese companies especially if I consider companies like twosun or CH rather than say bestech or kizer. I still love the US or Tiwan Spydies ZT's. I just feel like if I'm buying an overseas made knife anyway why not cut out the middle man.
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Hi Kevin.
I'm always on the lookout for new Chinese brands that represent original designs and quality materials at a bargain price. I guess I'm hoping to find the next Reate :p. I've bought a bunch of the CH and TwoSun knives and I think you need to proceed with caution on both brands. There's no denying that the knives are nicely made, probably quality-wise in the Ruike/Realsteel and approaching Kizer realm. For the most part the materials are as advertised, although the D2 is a little sketchy given the different standards for that steel around the world. XRF testing shows the "D2" won't meet a narrow ASTM Spec that's used in the US, but it will meet a broader spec that's more common in Asia. AUS 8 and S35VN tested as spot-on.

The problem is I'm fairly certain they also manufacture clones that are sold with or without the makers mark. I know for certain I've seen pictures of knives on the CH Knives Instagram page that were a direct copy of a Michael Zieba knife. And there have been others that I can't recall off the top of my head. I think the jury is still out on CH and TwoSun in particular, but at this point I've decided to not purchase or endorse those brands.

Now for some bullet point comments in general to what I've seen in this thread:
1. Clones are wrong. There is never a good or supported reason to buy one short of to learn how to identify them. Don't buy clones. Don't steal candy from babies. Don't piss in the wind. All good life tips that can be employed by all levels of intelligence.

2. I'm pretty sure "Kevin John" isn't a dude hunched over a CAD design terminal. It started as a name to slap on clone knives and has gradually become accepted as an entity. There may be persons currently designing the "original" knives that are branded Kevin John, there may even be a person stepping forward as the brand attempts to gain legitimacy, but it didn't start with a Chinese dude who's name was "Kevin" and "John", exclusively in that order.

3. There's a world of difference between a business model to responsibly outsource production and supporting makers who steal designs. If you can't see that then you should get off an internet forum and go take an economics class.

4. Clones are wrong. Did I already mention that?

5. See bullet #1.
 
I'm not going to wade into the clone discussion, because we can all agree that from our (read: Western Civilization's) standpoint it's not just wrong, it's criminally wrong. We can also agree that from their (read: Chinese Civilization's) standpoint, they almost can't seem to grasp the concept of intellectual property.

I'm coming into this strictly as a guy who likes cool and unique knives.

I see that the Chinese have increased their manufacturing capabilities in such orders of magnitude that they're truly ABLE (not always willing) to produce products that are of the highest quality. That they are finally leveraging that capability along with truly innovating unique and original designs is a cool thing for all of us.

I know that I really like some of the knives that they are producing now. Reate's originals and some of their collabs like with Liong Mah or Arcform are truly cool and innovative. WE's originals like the Echaton or the Zeta are cool, unique, and innovative. Even on the lower end some of the originals from say, TwoSun that you mentioned are truly cool, unique and innovative. I know that I'd like to get one of their TS59's myself. I don't really see anything on the market too similar to it, and it seems to be pretty well made for the money.

My point is, I see the Chinese innovating and stepping up to the big boy table as a good thing. The more people there are putting talent and resources to designing and building cool new shiny things the better.

Hopefully their culture wakes up to the fact that it makes more sense to design something cool and new with reasonable quality and sell it for ~$100 than it does to expend as much energy and resources to try to cater to some retard that thinks he should be able to buy a Microtech for $50.
 
needler420 said:
That's because Hong Kong is the true wild west of a free market capitalist. Companies that start there go under the same day. Tech companies go there just to operate outside of US jurisdiction.

You say copyright infringement?

In New Zealand online copyright infringement is not criminal under their copyright Act per Kim dotcom case. He's actually wanted by the FBI in the united states for extradition.

what's law of the land in one land isn't the law on another land.

Cloning a US patent in Hong Kong is not something their government will regulate and you won't make trade agreements with them.

It's why I say you want to get upset at clones and ethics, get you're priorities straight and be upset with all the American companies outsourcing to China...

You're against clones but ok with buying Chinese Spyderco, Cold steel, Schrade, Case, SOG, Buck all American companies who now operate in China where they have no laws regulating copyright infringement and no showing in wanting to make trade agreements to regulate those laws.. The pot calling the kettle black. The same company that doesn't want you to buy a clone literally will move operation to Hong Kong for revenue where it's the culprit of clones.

Spyderco is suing ebay based on counterfeit clones. Yet you moved operation to the very place that does the clones.
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The old "two wrongs make a right" clone argument. Great.
 
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