Daisy Cutter Protoype

demoteamone said:
The handle works both ways?
daisyProto4-1.jpg
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yeah, that middle section's axis travels just poll-ward of the Center of Mass.

when you grab that distal end (where you circled) bit-forward grip, that modern-looking bit nexus aligns to an optimum angle with your arm and wrist.


....looks wierd. feels extremely good.


ya want to kill something though.

vec
 
Keep thinking out side the box Bro. Thats what separates the true genius from what every one has done since the first rock was tied to a stick.

Will you be using this shape/style on more traditional heads?
 
GUN SNOB said:
Keep thinking out side the box Bro. Thats what separates the true genius from what every one has done since the first rock was tied to a stick.
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thanks for the kind words, brother.

Will you be using this shape/style on more traditional heads?
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i don't know, to tell you the truth, brother - traditional heads were made for the limitations of traditional handles, it seems to me.

even if it was a better handle, folks' sense of tradition might keep them from wanting it - and that's fine to me personally, but i have to stay in business, of course.

i would like to have traditional technology heads coupled with some special composite handles though, especially in the faux wood finishes that we do. - lots of elegant arc-shaped handles with forged heads that would work beautifully, and appeal to the folks who like old fashioned looking stuff.

vec
 
I look forward to a video demonstrating the various grips and comparing to a more traditional hawk - trying to follow the technical jargon makes me glaze over but I'm sure pretty pictures on video would be worth a million words!
 
Vec, this is what i meant..........

flip the handle so its orientated like this:



i think it would be deadly for CQB strikes...........
 
Bushman5 said:
Vec, this is what i meant..........

flip the handle so its orientated like this:

i think it would be deadly for CQB strikes...........
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yeah, i understood what ya meant, brother - the hammer poll is oriented that way - there are also different mass placements than on the ice axes ...so it's apples and oranges (kinda, IMHO).

on Proto Handle 2, I am fooling around with a bolted-on style of handle, so you could flip it yourself (with a little re-work on one of our parts), which would be great too, and more conventional, but you'd lose the poll's effectiveness as a blunt force weapon for the sake of more of a khukri-style chop with the bit. a lot like those Rifle-Stock Indian War Clubs; not bad at all, just more of an attacking-style weapon, with less advantage in defensives, like in a melee IMHO, hence the name Melee Handle....

i need to find a particular drill bit, and then i'll zip this second baby together and load up some images of the handle.

as it is initially, it does what i wanted it to - good plaining in the poll-forward distal hold, and great slicing and penetration in the bit-forward distal hold, ...with plenty of utility in the mid-holds and the poll-forward hold on the end....

lots to do still.

vec
 
fishface5 said:
I look forward to a video demonstrating the various grips and comparing to a more traditional hawk - trying to follow the technical jargon makes me glaze over but I'm sure pretty pictures on video would be worth a million words!
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hehehe!

i hear ya on the techno-jazz - it is a bit dry, isn't it. but it's got to be told.

at least ya know that anyone who would bore you to death like me is probably telling the facts - LOL.

i gotta get some video savvy.

my friends are the Hoods, so i don't like to get near video usually - they can do it, and much better. ...they are supposed to be doing an article on the ECO Hawk next issue of their Survival Quarterly - i just got the first issue, and liked it a lot. - the folks at Dirt Time do similar stuff but with almost no combatives slant like the Hoods do, so they might write about this model in Wilderness Way Magazine, but i think they are more interested in bushcrafty stuff, like our conventional Gen 1 Mk V hawks....

dunno. we should do a video though, you are right.

i need some test zombies.

vec
 
demoteamone said:
Nice VEC!!
How the locking mechanism operates?
Ballistic force= kN?
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i haven't come up with a standard version yet, brother.

it might be up to the end user, by the time we refine it.

crossing my fingers there.

right now, the composite flares and has a high level of surface contact with the parts of the head that are built to accept that. the harder you hit with it, the more the composite reacts and grips.

it's one of those things that just works. sometimes success on the first try is more of a curse than a blessing, when you are developing. if you really blow it, then you know to go left or right.... otherwise....


i built these protos on the weak side purposefully, intending to test some theories of what the structure could deliver, and i have been really pleasantly surprised so far - i haven't tested them too much at all yet, but i know the materials and structures really well from personally designing some of them, and using all of them for a long time, so i am getting pretty happy at what i am seeing... still no bragging rights yet :D but good things take time....

as i alluded to, i am going to just put the second handle on the head with some clunky bolts (that can be refined later) to see how she does, and then i'll get some more pictures up.

thanks, brethren, for checking our little Daisy Cutter out.

vec
 
The grip is too square, its going to hurt like a mother to chop with it, round it off some.
 
Nuke41 said:
The grip is too square, its going to hurt like a mother to chop with it, round it off some.
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no.

you are assuming a few things, including that there is normal feedback; there's not.


its not too square for a combatives handle either , especially when fiber-aligned composites come into play.

this handle material, plus the angles, breaks the normal rules of feedback into the hand.

the Ultility Handle Version will be rounded more, but you lose indexing, and frankly, with fiber-aligned composites, the handle is so forgiving, in most cases i could make it more jagged, and it would still be a dream in the hand compared to wood, Micarta, typical phenolic moosh handles, and steel variations.

a lot of makers don't have a clue about the math of the hand either - there are handle constants that feel good in a large array of hand sizes and shapes - the flats of these handles lock into the meat of your hand and provide more surface area than a rounded handle, which causes tears and blisters because it is making pressure points on your flesh, similar to what folks commonly think the small radiusses on these handles do, but they don't act the same way; - you wouldn't feel the radiussed edges of my handles even if they were sharpened more in most cases, because your hand isn't coming in contact with them.

the only time squared handles with a bit of radius hurt the hand, is when the hand math isn't followed - the grip can't be too big or two small, and the angles should be optimized. - that's where most of the confusion comes from. - people look at the handle by particulars instead of as a total system.

we are used to that.

it's fun to watch peoples' eyes bug when they try it.

grab it instinctively and it snaps right into your hand.

like i said, it's outside of everyone's experience and colored expectations. we wind up with a lot of former critics that become great buddies because of stuff like that.

i don't expect anyone to believe me, that's why we have the unconditional Happiness Guarantee on all our stuff.

as the Rangers say - hua?


the angle of the hand when you use the bit is not at a right angle to the chopping media either, like on a conventional handle, plus you have the reflex characteristics that would be present in this handle no matter what it was made out of, composite or titanium, or whatever - so feedback is diminished greatly, so we are allowed to make the handle blocky, which helpos greatly in fights and attacks in H2H, somethng i have alot of real experience with, so i have some concrete views of what i want in designs.

so; i think you made a very good suggestion for conventional materials, but it doesn't apply to my composites in most cases.


i didn't explain it well - some things are too simple to convey completely.

better to just pick it up and say "oh."


Math of the Hand.

vec
 
i keep coming back to this thread. Just looks like an evolutionary design imo for combat.

Is it going to follow the ounce per inch rule Vec or have you worked that out yet. Also do you have the specs handy on the head like what steel and dimensions? The pic makes it look chisel ground which i assume its not?

thanks
 
crossada said:
i keep coming back to this thread. Just looks like an evolutionary design imo for combat.

Is it going to follow the ounce per inch rule Vec or have you worked that out yet. Also do you have the specs handy on the head like what steel and dimensions? The pic makes it look chisel ground which i assume its not?

thanks
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the ounce per inch rule is for (what i consider to be) a proper tomahawk.

the head weighs 16.1 Ounces, so it can take down doors with low effort, especially with the Melee Handle design, but like a proper hawk, be a manageable weight, so a grunt can take it anywhere the Shit is.

the Cold Steel Rifleman's Hawk head weighs about 24 Ounces when you trim its poll off - if you could put a reflexed handle on it, it would be like a War Hammer on crack, but it'd be a little heavy to carry around all the time. - the Daisy Cutter is designed to stay with you, not left behind in the HumVee. that 8 ounce difference between heads, coupled with the Daisy Cutter's frictional coefficents, maul-like primary edge, angle approaches on target, and much more, will make it greatly outclass the heavier modified Rifleman's hawk though - i am saying this as a great lover of the Mod'd Riflemans Hawk BTW.

i don't know what the heck the Daisy Cutter is, but it ain't a hawk.

- it does have a lot of tomahawk characteristics, and if the center line of the reflexed Melee handle was straightened out, it would be pretty close to my proper tomahawk ounce-per-inch-of-length maxim - so i guess what it would be considered would be subjective in one way, but objective in another, depending on whether you looked at it scientifically or not.

Hell, i don't know what it is, brother - it will probably be called a tomahawk, because that's what folks know.



the problem with most non-linear/curved handles is that they sacrifice something on designs that use both sides of the head - i can't think of one that doesn't, but there might be one - not so with the Daisy Cutter's angles...;

it's a great hammer. it's a great chopper. plus more. it's ready to rawk any way ya point it.

i just know i like it. call it whatever. it's simply a Daisy Cutter to me.

it'll only get better.


......

anyays, more on the development arc;

when i developed the Generation 1 Series Tomahawks, it was with a mind to just improve what i have always thought was a totally overlooked tool that was also a fantastic weapon; the proper hawk. good knives were the only other thing that i could think of that were so good at being great weapons and great tools at the same time, with little compromise - and a hawk and a knife made a great pair, in my perception of things H2H;

but with the Daisy Cutters the development process was completely different;

it started out as just numbers representing force vectors and ergonomics and feedback locations in sort of a shorthand/dinner napkin kinda thingy,

then it became a physics diagram - at that point there was no identifiable form,

- then the figures were defined into two-dimensional zones,

...and then the design was elevated to 3 dimensions in physical models and CAD, and cross-checked against each other via various physical tests and virtual diagnostics. we are continuing to test it at this time - it's teaching me as much as i am confirming right now, in fact.


now the Daisy Cutter is in the late prototype stage, next will be full production, God Willing.


the name Daisy Cutter came to be for a variety of reasons, starting with the profile of thje poll - it looks exactly like a bomb! - it hits like one too.

the top of the head looks like an RPG rocket to me too.

the whole head looks like it fell off a stealth bomber.

- i had nothing to do with that. - it's just what the cold and hard numbers demanded.

seeing these characteristics take form felt like a good omen.

it's gonna be something different.

new rules.

.........

the current heads are made of zone-tempered 5160 by a heat treat shop that really knows its stuff. we are not limited to any alloy at this time, but the 5160 seems to be great stuff when it is tempered right. i've forged knives out of it that took a lot of abuse, plus the design of the head and handle work in concert to absorb a lot of shock, so i think this alloy choice will work great for us.

the edges on the head are (what i would call) a modified saber grind, and the head is symmetric on both sides of the longitudinal plane that bisects the middle. it will be easy to sharpen and keep sharp. folks could bring the edge down in angle, but i would highlyu recommend they try all the grips first, because this head is going to break a lot of conventions.

i have a lot of suggestions i want to include with the final product - try all the grips before modding is probably number one - the Daisy Cutter, by feel alone, should teach the end-user quite a bit too.

the handle grip angles will allow you to split wood like with a little maul, but also slice, like a much thinner hawk-like bit would do, because of the edge structures in relation to your grip, as i have repeated.

you can tell i am excited.

vec
 
demoteamone said:
My deepest apologies vec.
I will watch this handsome project very close:thumbup:
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what?!!

you don't owe me any apologies, brother!

we iz engineerin'...!!! :cool::thumbup:


it's gonna get funky before it gets finalized.

don't laugh too hard.

vec
 
^ not sure why you'd want a hammer attachment over the blade, brethren - there is a pretty good sized poll on the other end already, in a better position to take advanag=teg of the handle's physics.

that said, i was looking at replaceable aftermarket polls on some hammers and thought something like that might be interesting to ultimately incorporate.

vec
 
i have to say, im not much of a hawk guy, but that thing is sweet:D:D Very nice work:thumbup:
 
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